Mar 13, 2009

Standby Money - Get It While You Can

In my earlier post, I wrote about the need to have emergency cash reserves. If you don't already have them, here's a quick way to build them up. From the TODAY newspaper:

Income checks: Onus on banks or borrowers?
Issue arises as more lose jobs, fall below salary threshold
Tuesday • March 10, 2009
Neo Chai Chin

A “WEIRD” conversation public relations consultant Lim Wee Ling had with a bank telemarketer a month ago went like this: “Ma’am, do you need a credit line?”


“But you could always do with another credit line. It’s possible that you could lose your job really quickly.”

Ms Lim, 31, was puzzled. “If I’m going to lose my job, all the more they shouldn’t be asking me to take credit,” she told Today.
In general, it is of course a bad idea to live on credit. In fact, I always think that anyone who actually pays interest on his credit cards must be either stupid or desperate.

Personal credit lines are a little different. Consider the fact that we are all now facing a prolonged economic crisis. You might have a job, but who knows whether you'll have one in six months' time, or a year's time. If you have plenty of emergency cash reserves, then you might not be that worried. But if you don't ....

While you still do have a job, you can get a personal credit line. When you don't have job, you won't be able to do so. So while you still have a job, perhaps it could be a good idea to apply for personal credit lines.

You then keep them on standby. As long as you don't use them, you won't have to pay any interest. But you keep them on standby, just in case someday in the future, touch wood, you do need to use them. (And I mean use them for essentials, not items like a new flat-screen TV).

In the not-so-distant past, a bank would normally grant to an individual a personal credit line equivalent to about twice the person's monthly salary. Under the new MAS regulations, a bank will be allowed to extend the person up to 4 times his monthly salary (if his annual income is at least $30,000).

So now, if you go apply for personal credit lines from three or four banks (eg DBS, OCBC, UOB and Standard Chartered), you could have an aggregate amount of credit lines easily exceeding your entire annual income.

Another consumer, Mr Lai Siew Kuan, got a call last week from a telemarketer, who told the 35-year-old property agent he could apply for a credit card even with a yearly income of $24,000 — that’s $6,000 below the qualifying income stipulated by the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS), for those aged 55 or younger.

Even as more Singaporeans fall victim to pay cuts or job losses, banks were recently reminded to periodically check the incomes of their credit cardholders. But how strict will banks actually get?

Last month, the MAS implemented revised guidelines on unsecured credit. One industry query it addressed was: What should happen with a credit cardholder whose annual income has fallen below the $30,000 threshold?

While such a customer may keep his existing cards, the MAS said, the bank must adjust the overall credit limit to twice his latest monthly income — and not grant any more credit until the customer’s outstanding sum falls below this new cap.
That's what the MAS said, in response to an industry query.

However, the actual regulations don't place any significant duty on banks to monitor on an ongoing basis the individual's employment status or monthly salary. In other words, at the time you apply for a credit line, the bank will ask you for your income statements.

Thereafter, the bank generally leaves you alone. Even if you lose your job the following month or your salary is cut, the bank generally wouldn't know and therefore your personal line of credit therefore still remains intact.

As a practical matter, it is not feasible for a bank to monitor its retail customers that closely. There are just too many retail customers.

But, judging from banks’ responses to Today’s queries, credit cardholders need not expect a sudden slew of letters or phone calls from their banks asking for proof of their latest income.

OCBC Bank said the typical practice is to conduct checks “at selected points in time, such as at the point of application as part of the process in providing a new card”, said Ms Lynn Gaspar, its head of lifestyle credit.

Association of Banks in Singapore director, Mrs Ong Ai Boon, said periodic income reviews on customers are done to “better assess their credit needs”. Income documents are required when applying for a new credit card, an additional card, or an increase in credit limit.

Standard Chartered and OCBC both told Today they had “robust” risk assessment and credit processes in place to lend responsibly. OCBC and United Overseas Bank also encouraged customers who experience difficulty with repayments to approach them, so as to explore options on a “case by case basis”.

I have two personal lines of credit. One is from DBS and the other is from RBS (formerly ABN AMRO). I never actually applied for them. They came automatically with my credit cards from these two banks. That was years ago.

And I've never used these personal credit lines. In the past, I made some attempts to cancel them, but DBS and RBS both waived the annual fees and said: "Please, please keep the lines. They're free, after all."

Oh well. Thanks then.


firemju said...

there is obviously a conflict of interest. Telemarketers wants to earn as much commission as possible, so are junior bank staffs.

Watch "House of Cards" from CNBC to understand more about this kind of fraud. It's coming to Singapore.

Anonymous said...

It's up to the bank to set its own criteria on who are eligible to borrow. And then it's up to the telemarketers to find the people who fit those criteria. Telemarketers can say whatever they want, but the customers must still meet the credit criteria in the end. So in that sense, no conflict of interest.

Anonymous said...

Just to share my experience.

I left my job about 3 years ago. In fact, it is not the 1st time I went jobless. My experience with credit card companies is the same, whether I have a job or otherwise.

My habit regardless of whether I am employed or otherwise is pay all my credit card bills in full when they are due monthly. My guess is that my credit rating in the Credit Bureau is pretty good.

Each of the times I've gone jobless, I did not bother to inform my banks that I have quit my job. Promoters on the street or phone will still recommend credit cards and credit lines to me. When I ask about the need for proof of income, they will ask if I have any existing credit card with the specific bank. If so, there is no need for further paperwork from me.

Thus, an unemployed person like myself managed to obtain new credit cards, upgraded existing credit cards, all for free, without much effort on my part other than to sign my acceptance.

Anonymous said...

Actually banks want to earn money from clients until it becomes very ridiculous.

For instance, I am a priority banking customer as I have a sizable sum in deposits with the bank at a miserable X % interest pa.

However, I received letters offering me loans up to my deposit amount at a good discount in interest of X+Y %!!

My RM also called me up to offer such loans saying the interest is at a very good discount!!

So you see they know I don't need the loans even if it is interest free yet they do such things just to earn money rather than paid out to depositers! Even when the deposit interest rate is already so low!!

Recently the banks reported an increase in their net interest income because the difference between interest rates for loans and deposits has widened considerably for quite some time. So it is good to be a bank in a recession.

Anonymous said...

Be careful.

Some of those telemarketers may not even know what they're saying. They may know little about the product, much less than the people back in the corporate office.

When it comes to business transactions, it's always good to have some trust. Too much paranoia sours the conversation and relationship. However, consumers, do exercise some discretion and think whether you need the product/service. If you really do not want it, simply say a firm NO and hang up.

Anonymous said...

hi firemju,

i find it interesting that you have chosen to describe the offer of a personal line of credit as fraudulent? would you care to elaborate?


LuckySingaporean said...

The angmoh living near my place has 6 credit cards and 6 lines of credit because his job is not steady and he is unable to save.

Once he loses his job, he, his Singaporean wife and children are kept alive by these lines until he finds another job. The last job loss, he chalk up $50K in debts before he found a job and started servicing his debt.

He told me life is tough in Singapore. If he were back in England he would be on dole.

If this recession lasts long enough and there is no safety net, people will resort to this bad idea of drawning down on their cards and credit lines. Already in the last quarter outstanding credit card debt actually surged in Singapore. It is a bad idea that is hard to resist....and the govt open the floodgates for the lower income to borrow by lowering the income requirements - mad?

The banks don't check if you're retrenched. These lines of credit becomes the safety net for those who were not able to save - and there are many such people given the high and rising cost of living. This is a 'safety net' can turn people into slaves with high debt burden or bankrupts if this recession lasts long enough.

lost said...

Mr Wang,

I don't quite understand. While I can appreciate the short-term benefit of having a standby credit line if you lose your job, isn't there a danger that you're just digging yourself deeper into debt, if you start tapping on these credit lines?

Would it not then be more prudent to hold some liquid savings instead, then?

Anonymous said...

The banks don't check if you're retrenched. These lines of credit becomes the safety net for those who were not able to save - and there are many such people given the high and rising cost of living. This is a 'safety net' can turn people into slaves with high debt burden or bankrupts if this recession lasts long enough.

so instead of gahmen providing social safety nets, they pass the responsibility to the private sector.. lol

is like nkf, gahmen effectively outsourced their social and public duties to the private sector.

Jon said...

Yes, self-regulation is such a bouncing good idea which should be extended to drug dealers and such.

The whole idea of vested interest is lost to those who regulate.

"Not the sin of omission, but the sin of commission."

The Lab Rat said...

I see credit cards as a source of free loan, as I settle my bills on time. Actually I don't go for the rewards points, as the effective discount (ie. spend $3000+ to get a $10 voucher) is really very small.

As an aside, I don't get why some people willingly "donate" their old newspapers and clothes to the National Recycling programme (ie the green plastic bags), when you can get some kopi money by selling it to the karang guni.

Onlooker said...

The scythe that can cut down the weed can also cut down the vegetables.
Unfortunately most will not have the prudence to withhold from spending with their spanking new credit card that encourage them to spend their future money.
There used to be a time when a credit card is only issue to people who can afford to service it's usage.
But what had transpired to make it so accessible now?
I wonder?
Wage slavery?

Mr Wang Says So said...

Yes Lucky, but what is the alternative? Would you rather be bankrupt and alive, or a non-bankrupt but dead from starvation?

Ideally, of course, you would want to be neither. But the point is, if the economic crisis is really going to be so bad and so prolonged, then lots of people are not going to be in the position where their liquid savings are going to be sufficient to tide them over.

I just read some article where it says that on average, it's expected that a person who gets retrenched in these times will take 7 months to get a new job. That's "on average", meaning some people will take even longer eg 9 months or one year or 15 months.

Of that category, what proportion do you think will actually have liquid savings to support themselves and their families for that long? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's not a big proportion.

Anonymous said...


the system provides you with a means to survive, you comprain. the system doesn't provide you with a means to survive, also comprain.

what do you want?

Anonymous said...

The travel fair, the IT fair, it's packed. Many are signing up for tours and lugging back good buys!. The crowds are back at condo launches. You know, such are not necessities.

Every weekend I eat at my favourite restaurants. As per good times, I still have to queue for a seat.

So where is the recession? Where is the lack of spending power?

So maybe majority are still OK. In a one man one vote plus GRC system, PAP's majority vote is assured!

Anonymous said...

anon 12:43pm,
I don't know abt Lucky Tan, but I want the govt to be the one providing the safety net. I do not want it to pass the buck to the bank!

Govt = provide free help
bank = provide loan

govt = we do not need to repay the money.
bank = if we cannot repay, we will be declared bankrupt!

No country, except this one, push the responsbility of unemployment benefits to banks! This is really uniquely Singapore.

Anonymous said...

and guys, please please ALWAYS call the bank to waive your ANNUAL FEES. it always works. dun be a kuku and pay it!! its free $$ to the banks!!
and from my sources, the annual revenue from annual fees alone from a certain bank in sg is easily more than 10mil...

it they not willing to waive just cancel the card and get another card.

Anonymous said...

To: anon 12:43pm,

"Govt = provide free help
govt = we do not need to repay the money.

No country, except this one, push the responsibility of unemployment benefits to banks!"

Very ridiculously interesting. I think you have not studied Economics in school. I mean at JC. Is there such a country around and isn't a bankrupt already long ago?

How do you do it forget abt our being a resourceless, 700 sq km, tiny island with 4.5 million mouths to feed? Print banana notes? Borrow from our neighbours or the UN to fund the freebies ?? Simply ludicrous! What mentality?

Did you know where the government's revenue come from in the first place to pay the on-going expenditures of civil servants, infrastructures, hospitals, schools . . . ? In a recession, when businesses are hard hit, income from taxes are drastically reduced or in some instances, nil!

Think lah . . .

Anonymous said...

Anon Mar 15 3:04pm

Then why not get out of Singapore to "any other country" that will support you since you're so confident abd well informed about their welfare systems. We could do with less freeloaders in these times.

Then again I won't be surprised if there are a significant number of pple who think like you. Who would turn down free money from any source - and how many pple would go on to think abt just how sustainable that free money can be?

LuckySingaporean said...

Mr. Wang,

Yes Lucky, but what is the alternative? Would you rather be bankrupt and alive, or a non-bankrupt but dead from starvation?

Yes there is no real alternative - its hunger or bankruptcy if this thing goes on long enough. With thin savings these days, I believe many will get into trouble if this recession goes on for another 6 months.

These problems however are not unanticipated. We have one the highest household debts in the world and at the onset of this recession HDB loan defaults were running at 8% as high as the US for the subprime crisis.
There were many things Singapore could have put in place including unemployment insurance, safety nets,..etc heck if HDB didn't sell those overpriced HDB flats on 30 yr mortgages, people won't be so exposed....and so on.

And our bankruptcy laws? Draconian as our treatment of pesky opposition members. The subprime borrower in the US is off the hook by returning his keys to the lender (non-recourse housing loan). Singapore they can come after you for everything you have - hey there were stories of children's bicycles siezed by the 'sticker' man. They can take your home for defaulting on unsecured debts whereas else where people are protected by homestead laws that prevent unsecured creditors from taking your home.

It is not just bankruptcy - it is Singapore style bankruptcy that breaks the spirit and send people so far down they can never stand up. And..when I heard our esteemed leaders lament that our societies lack risk taking spirit and that Singaporeans are not dynamic - it makes you wonder if these leaders our ours have no inkling of what they are talking abt...

Chee Wai Lee said...

Lost - March 14, 2009 8:46 AM.

I do not think Mr. Wang is suggesting digging yourself into more debt by taking the credit lines. The point is really about cash flow.

See Lucky's (March 14, 2009 6:00 AM) description of his friend's scenario. In the case when income goes away and your savings are desperately low, the lines of credit are now available to tide you over until you find a new job (and start servicing the credit immediately). The alternative is bankruptcy since you cannot apply for lines of credit when you do not have income.

Jimmy Mun said...


I have watched someone go bankrupt up close. Yes, it breaks the spirit. But that's about it. That bankrupt relative of mine is still living more luxuriously than me. Even though the couple's combined income is less than my wife's alone, we live more "bankrupt" than them.

The HDB flat is protected. CPF money is protected. She didnt even lose her job. All she needs is to set aside a part of her income to the OA, have a little inconvenience while travelling, and that's about it.

The only thing fearful about bankruptcy in Singapore, is the fear itself.

Your personal experience may differ, and I welcome you to share.

There is, of course, a worse state than bankruptcy, and that is owing loanshark money. You cant negotiate with O$P$.

However, inaccessibility to credit had been driving even legitimate businessmen to seek loanshark money for legal business activities, so I believe government is long overdue in easing banking restrictions, especially to the most needy, if not taking the lead to guarantee microloans to drive loansharks out of business.

However, IMHO, the government should not give handouts even to the needy not just because of affordability, but also the moral hazard of the notion that the government will take care of you when you fall.

More than once, when I have financial arguments with my father, he will point out that he can always ask the MP for help. He probably thinks PAP owes him a pile of money for his "obedient" voting. Yes, although the official PAP line is anti-welfare, they had always implied that vote for PAP and the MPs will take care of you.

It's not going to be fun being a PAP MP as the recession deepens, as more and more people meet their MP to "cash in their cheques".

Anonymous said...

Who says no fun being a PAP MP?
Just once a week for a few hours for Meet people session only what?

After all, there is no quota on how many people you should help successfully or else...., unlike in a sales job.

Furthermore there is unlikely to be any by-election so job is basically assured for a few years unless you commit a crime, have terminal illness or being killed.

Anonymous said...

Ironically, those who can ride out the storm are those who have enough savings and therefore do not need to make use of credit facilities.

Those who cannot even survive during temporary unemployment are generally those who have very little savings and therefore need a fall back plan like ready credit.

Unfortunately, it is the majority of these same people, who because they cannot manage their budget well, are left without much savings.

Therefore, the majority of these people will most likely have problems servicing their debts when they do have a job again. Not to metion that nowadays, some are forced to take up jobs paying much lower salaries than their previous jobs.

So, ready credit may be a useful last ditch solution for those really in desperate need, it can be disastrous for those who cannot understand the rationale for resorting to it.

Lost Citizen

Anonymous said...

To: Anonymous March 17, 2009 1:23

"Who says no fun being a PAP MP?
Just once a week for a few hours for Meet people session only what?"

Intelligent Reader:

Looks like the next GE is around the corner. Well, no one is stopping you from contesting. This is a free country. Choose the ward you think you can "makan" i.e. where the constitutients will vote you in (to destroy them and/or the constituency like the Lings, Cheos, etc.).

Talk a lot. How do you create jobs today in the global meltdown for Singaporeans? Did you first thought of and created the Reserves in the first place? Do you dare fight the UMNO ultras like MM then for a Malaysian Malaysia? Go read history like Patrick Keith's "Ousted". How acute is your senses of regional or global geo-politics? Not just superficial Singapore alone.

Go sell yourself at the hustings instead of hiding behind the blog. See you. Hee!

Anonymous said...

Anon 3.18 pm

What u talking about? Like cow head don't fit horse mouth!

Concerned Singaporean said...

Mr Wang,

These credit lines have a hefty price that kicks in the moment you make use of them -- the interest rates can be quite substantial.

While it's good to have access to credit, I think you may wish to advise your readers to look carefully at what these instant credit services actually entail!

It may be a bad idea to advise people to deal with cash flow pressures by going even further into debt at high interest rates!

Mr Wang Says So said...


What are you going to eat then? (I mean, after being jobless for 24 months and your savings have run out).

Anonymous said...

Dear Wang,

I think u are right abt many things and have enjoyed your blog. However, in this case, I think your stance is wrong.

A person facing a cash crunch should not turn to credit cards. The more dire the situation, the more the person should not use credit as he will likely mortgage his future. If all else fails, sitting in front of his MP's house everyday asking for money is a better option. (I dun believe they will actually let anyone starve to death. btw. Did not pap say welfare is enough so u dun starve?)

Incidentally, to give PAP its due, at least we have a country where one does not have to worry abt starving....

Anonymous said...

"...If all else fails, sitting in front of his MP's house everyday asking for money is a better option..."

u must be joking, bro/sis. the last time i checked, you'll be taken to task even on the phone. nvrmind how physically far away u r from the moat in front of your MP's house.

Anonymous said...

Erm.. since when is a PAP MP a free ATM? What gives? He will likely tell you fly some kite. The PAP MP will likely scold you for getting yourself into this situation. In any case, if you are broke, who are you going to borrow from? Obviously one place to borrow from is the bank.

Jon said...

I'm also of the mind that personal credit lines and credit cards are a bad idea, particularly in this time of recession.

My reason is solely because having a personal credit line or ample credit cards give folks a false sense of security when their jobs or economic situation is unstable in times like this. Instead of actually trying to cut spending and live within their means, they think that it's OK, because I have my credit to help weather the storm.

All they are doing is getting deeper and deeper into debt and mortgaging their future.

IMO, the prudent thing to do in times like this is to force yourself to readjust your spending accordingly based on your liquid assets, and not rely on personal lines of credit as a crutch.

Mr Wang Says So said...

well, if you are unable to trust yourself, you do have a problem and the personal lines of credit may not be for you. To me, they are more like having life jackets on my boat. I think they're a good idea even if my boat is in good shape and i can swim well. The fact that i may absolutely never ever use the life jackets doesn't change the fact that they are a good idea.

The said...

/// Anonymous said...
I hate to say this, but the comments here seem quite one sided, being based on the assumption that the platform that the new AWARE Exco will be pushing is anti-homosexuality.
April 25, 2009 7:26 PM ///

Anon @7:26PM,

No, no assumption needed at all.

Even before the "coming out" of This Su Mien, Josie and MAureen had already lied on national TV. Josie claimed she only stood as the "last man standing" and not premeditated, yet DBS said she sought approval to run for the presidency and was told not to. Josie and Maureen claimed they don’t know each other until the election. The new exco team claimed that their religious belief is their personal belief and nothing to do with their joining/taking over AWARE. Well, look at the emails below and judge for yourselves.

* * *

To:, Undisclosed-Recipient:
Subject: Re Aware
Attachments AWARE_membership_mail-in_application_form.pdf concerned

Dear All

Please see Attachments on some recent developments in Aware. Aware is a woman’s organization which conducts comprehensive sexual programmes for girls and it runs this programme in some of the schools. They encourage girls to express their full sexuality and this includes experimenting with other girls. It would be a good idea to join it and change its focus to other problems of women and families.

..Please ask your like-minded friends to join Aware so that you can give the vote to those who wish to be an agent of change for the Lord. They could also contribute to the activities of the oprganization as there is much to be done for women and families in this dowturn of the economy. Unfortunately, I cannot surface but shall be assisting in the background . I attach the Aware membership application form for your use. The Aware application form has a section as to who ( if any) told you about Aware. You can just leave it blank . Please let me know whether you can join and attend the AGM which will be towards the end of March 2009. The fee is $40/ and should be mailed to the Aware Office ( see application form).

Look forward to hearing from you. Please call me. May I have your phone no?

Su Mein
From: lynkl@xxxxxx
To: leonglh@xxxxxx,,,,,,,
Subject: Fw: Re Aware
Attachments AWARE_membership_mail-in_application_form.pdf McFarlane v. homosex therapy.htm selected articles (1).pdf

Dear beloved Sis In Christ,
Would like to ask you and your like-minded friends who are believers to join as members of AWARE to cast votes and be a change agent for the Lord in some of the recent issues happen in this organization that is not according to the Lord’s principles………..
Please pray for Lord’s wisdom to pass on this important message as it is confidential……
Thank you.
From: Mervyn xxx
Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 11:59 PM
To: xxxx Xian Jin; FOONG Tai Wei; Adora TAN Su Yan; Eugene TAN Jia Rong; ZHOU Siming
Subject: RE: AWARE - Your Action Needed

Acknowledged. We (Eugene and I) had quite a bit of talk on this issue over dinner today.

Right now we should pray for the COOS members who are being put through scrutiny and invasion of their private lives by the media. Pray that God’s Word will prevail over the values of the world. Homosexuality isn’t God’s design and we pray that those who stand up against it and are discriminated will be delivered.

Praise God for COOS’ stand and He who aids us as we stand firmly upon His Word.

- Merv

Lotsa lessons to learn about how we Christians engage the world and secularism.

From: xxxx Xian Jin
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:37 PM
To: FOONG Tai Wei; Adora TAN Su Yan; Mervyn LEE xxx xxx; Eugene TAN Jia Rong; ZHOU Siming
Subject: FW: AWARE - Your Action Needed

Dear friends,

Thanks Tai Wei and Adora for taking an interest in the Aware Elections and how Church of Our Saviour has been embroiled in the controversy in the papers today. The media seems to have taken a strong stance against my church and this email is to update you all on the church’s position, which the senior pastor has kept mum about, but we would be expecting his comments in church tomorrow.

Below is an email sent out by a church staff to members of the church on the need for Christians to rise up and how they can be involved in this issue. Meanwhile, please pray for the church for it could be difficult time for members who are in the spotlight and the church could also be facing some brickbats along the way. Pray for God’s protection and wisdom to see us through.

DG, keeping you in the loop.

Xian Jin

——— Forwarded message ———-
From: Shawn xxx
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Subject: AWARE - Your Action Needed

Dear Friend,

Our nation needs your support and action very urgently!

AWARE is an organization that has existed in Singapore for many years.

It is a non-profit body dedicated to women’s advocacy and gender equality.

They protect women’s rights and help develop women to their fullest potential.

In the last few years, AWARE has aggressively become involved in gay

activism. Many members of their committee are pro-gay. They have even

conducted a sexual education programme in some schools that teach

young people that it is normal and alright to behave homosexually. They

have also screened a lesbian-themed movie Spider Lilies at a Charity Ball.

During this week, AWARE held an election of office bearers. This event saw

many of the pro-gay old guards losing their positions in the committee to new

faces. These new people do not share the values of the pro-gay old guards

and has caused much shock and rage to the latter group.

The pro-gay old guards are retaliating by calling for an Extraordinary General

Meeting where they intend to amend the Constitution to only allow members

who have been with AWARE for more than 2 years, to vote. If this change is

passed, then only the pro-gay old guards and their cohorts will have the

power to do what they want.

To prevent this from happening, we are calling on all responsible females

to sign up for membership with AWARE immediately, and also to attend this

all-important EGM so as to vote against changing the Constitution.

If you are male and have received this petition, please pass it to as many

responsible females as you know and encourage them to sign up for

membership with AWARE so as to vote against any changes to their


The date for the EGM has yet to be announced but it should be soon.

Membership fees are $40 for adult females and $5 for female fulltime students below

the age of 25. Please print the attached softcopy of the membership form,

fill in the details (no need to tell who referred you), mail the form with your cheque.

Singapore is counting on you. Please respond.

You are made for such a time as this!




From: Linda xxx
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 2:21 PM
To: COOS English Church Staff - DL; Derek xxx
Subject: FW: Ps 68:11

Dear Pastor Derek,

The number of members registered on Tuesday night is 13 out of 40 who turned up.

One thing I forgot to mention this morning was the film show Spider Lilies (selected articles attached above)

The school children were told that lesbian lifestyle is okay.