Feb 17, 2009

The Mystery of the Malaysian Parents

ST Feb 13, 2009
Pro-S'porean policy in jobs, housing impractical

THE notion of a pro-Singaporean policy is noble but not practical. What many policymakers and many well-meaning citizens fail to recognise is that many Singaporeans are married to non-Singaporeans.

Non-Singaporeans may, for one reason or another, not be in a position to take up Singapore citizenship. This may be because they have elderly parents in their native country or they do not meet general requirements to take up citizenship.

As someone in this category, I find that this pro-Singaporean policy penalises this segment of the population. Over the years, we have contributed thousands of dollars to the Singapore economy, we pay taxes and levies and we have decided to setup of our family unit in Singapore. We have bought an HBD flat and look forward to being proud owners of a home in Singapore.

I am not in a position to take up citizenship, as it is my responsibility to take care of my parents in Malaysia. They have chosen their home and I cannot, in good conscience, force them to relocate here.

Imagine this. Our flat will be ready only in 2012. Of our two incomes, I earn more than my wife. My income pays for almost everything, including rent (which has increased astronomically). The cost of living has gone up, and even cooking at home is no cheaper then eating outside. Paying utility bills, insurance premiums, car loan, education loans and so on leaves us with just enough to make ends meet. In recent months, we have had to dip into our savings to pay for many things.

We used to consider ourselves slightly better off than middle class, but now we are not even in that category. If I lose my job, because I am not a Singaporean, where would that leave us?

Consider this as well. I pay goods and services tax (GST), income tax, Central Provident Fund (CPF) and every other payment as Singaporeans do, but I get few if any benefits. I do not get GST refunds; nor am I a beneficiary of any other monetary initiative to relieve the sufferings of Singaporeans, despite the fact that I am forming a family unit with a Singaporean in Singapore.

Adrian Gopal

I don't follow the logic. I don't understand why Adrian Gopal cannot take up citizenship in Singapore just because he has parents in Malaysia. I'm sure that most foreigners who take up citizenship in Singapore also have parents in other countries.

Could it be that for as long as he's still in Singapore, Adrian just wants to enjoy the benefits of citizenship in Singapore, without actually taking up citizenship?

And then one day if it doesn't make sense for him to stay here any more, he can run back to Malaysia where he will enjoy the benefits of the Malaysian citizenship that he never gave up?

89 comments:

Ape said...

I suppose he owns a property in Malaysia to house his parents? And if he takes up SGP citizenship he has to renounce his Malaysian citizenship (and transfer his property's ownership to someone else?)

Whatever is the case, ape feels one either takes or (citizenship) or don't... make your choice and live with your choice.

Anonymous said...

Mr Wang,

I think you are spot on regarding why some don't take up citizenship. But you know lah, how can they give these type of reasons, even if they are real and true?

These people can make "good" politicians but they cannot fool people like Mr Wang or me. Unless I have no better choice and so choose the lesser of 2 evils.

Khayce said...

I think there might be a few more practical problems than what is readily apparent.

For example, I'm given to understand that certain bank accounts in Malaysia can only be held by Malaysian citizens. When one becomes a Singaporean, the bank accounts need to be closed or transfered to another name.

The practical offshot of this is that what Adrian Gopal says is somewhat true - it is more difficult to take care of parents because they don't have subsisting bank accounts there.

I'm sure there are more practical aspects I have thought of (insurance? house ownership?) but changing citizenship, unfortunately, isn't quite as simple an issue as I originally thought it was.

WhiteDuskRed said...

I'm sure he can take care of his parents if he take up Singapore citizenship. In fact, with the GST rebates and other benefits, he can take better care of them.

Like you wrote, he just want to have the best of both worlds.

To Adrian: You are in a position to take up citizenship. You can still take care of your parents no matter where they settle in. If you can take care of them while working here and intending to continue working here for a very long time since you bought a flat, I'm sure taking up citizenship will not change anything.

Desmond Lim said...

So agree, furthermore did Mr. Gopal server 2.5 years in NS plus 10 cycles of ICTs? Until he does, he is in no position to say anything.

Want all the "privileges" and none of the shit.

Anonymous said...

What exactly are the so-called 'benefits' of citizenship without being a citizen?

Would you not categorize those as PR benefits instead?

I agree there is no point for PRs to argue when the country decides to take care of their citizens more and discriminate PRs in bad times. Most countries would do that logically.

We're just here to live and work as PRs and let market forces decide whethere many will stay or run or convert.

Mr Wang Says So said...

"I suppose he owns a property in Malaysia to house his parents? And if he takes up SGP citizenship he has to renounce his Malaysian citizenship (and transfer his property's ownership to someone else?)"

See this link:

"Can foreign nationals own property in Malaysia?

Yes, as overseas investment in property is actively encouraged by the government, foreigners can easily purchase real estate in Malaysia. Foreign owners are treated in the same way as Malaysian property owners and are protected by the same system of real estate laws. Foreigners are allowed to buy property to a minimum value of MYR 250,000 and you can buy up to two residential properties. Should you wish to purchase a third property, you need to apply for permission from the Foreign Investment Committee in Malaysia."

Anonymous said...

Our standard of living have shot through the roof, our hdb flats are getting costlier by the years but our wages have progressed so pathetically over the years... y is mr gopal whinning over a few hundred dollar handout every year? wat a dumb ass!

i am ready to give up my passport anytime for more affordable house in the suburbs, a cheap car, less stressful life, higher taxes but also higher wages!!!

pls dun think our tax rates are lowest in the world. you are paying for GST, which your non-income, non-working children, who also spends money are also paying!!!

Mr Wang Says So said...

"I think there might be a few more practical problems than what is readily apparent.

For example, I'm given to understand that certain bank accounts in Malaysia can only be held by Malaysian citizens. When one becomes a Singaporean, the bank accounts need to be closed or transfered to another name.

The practical offshot of this is that what Adrian Gopal says is somewhat true - it is more difficult to take care of parents because they don't have subsisting bank accounts there."


The fact that the foreigner's access to banking services would otherwise become less convenient surely cannot be a good reason for Singapore to extend citizenship benefits to non-citizens.

And I don't think it is really so difficult for a Singaporean to send money to a Malaysian relative. Try sending a cheque or a cashier's order; or direct remittance.

Khayce said...

No, not saying that we should subsidize the decision of the PR not to take up Citizenship. I'm just wondering if there really is a cost-benefit analysis going on beyond the usual "here to take benefits, gone when benefits are gone" accusations that I routinely seen being hurled.

As for the bank account issue - a lot of that is predicated on having relatives in Malaysia who are willing and able to process money in that form. Uneducated / Senile parents may form an impediment.

Furthermore, I'm also not -quite- sure about this, but isn't taking Ringgit out of Malaysia extremely controlled? Would it result in a substantial devaluation of their life savings? If so, I can also see why they would be hesistant in leaving the money in Malaysia.

Ah Pat said...

I just cannot understand PRs who expect to have the "privileges" of being a citizen (whatever those privileges are) without taking up citizenship. First you come here, take our job, share our land and air, and now you're whining about a pro-citizen policy. The nerve of some people!!!

Anonymous said...

Adrian Gopal and other PRs are asking for citizenship priviledges when lesser mortals true-blue Singapore citizens are already struggling? IMHO, I think they are just asking for trouble. Remember the online hoopla over an India Indian PR last year asking for HDB "market-subsidy" flats when even single Singaporean citizens don't have this privilege.

To Adrian Gopal:
You already have an unfair advantage in the Singapore employment market against the true-blue male Singapore citizens, as you do not have NS reservist liabilities as instituted by the Singapore govt. It's your choice, if you can't make it here, please relocate your family back to your homeland to enjoy a lower cost of living. Many PRs work here and remit their salary back home to support their families. True-blue Singapore citizens don't even have such an option of a lower cost of living, and that contributes to the low birth rates. I'm sure you can convince your Singaporean wife of the advantage of relocating back to Malaysia while young. Afterall according to our Minister Khaw's (an ex-Malaysian) repeated suggestion, she can expect to spent her aged years in a JB nursing home. It sounds cruel, it's the reality while Singapore is still ruled by PAP. We cannot afford to be generous to foreigners (PRs or otherwise) when our own true-blue citizens are struggling under the PAP's overly open-door policies.

lau min-tsek said...

Adrian's reasoning makes perfect sense to me. I hear it all the time.

Singapore don't allow for dual citizenship so in theory, you have to give up your foreign citizenship. (in practice many people act blur).

If you give up your Malaysian citizenship, you cannot stay in Malaysia for prolonged periods of time. If your Malaysian parents are sick, and you need to go back for a protracted period of time, then you will need to cross the border before your social visit period is over. This is inconvenient and difficult. In some countries, they only allow for foreigners to stay only up to certain time periods, and disallow the foreigner to come back immediately. So you can't simply cross the border and come back in again if you want to stay longer.

People can come up with lots and lots of counter argument why this should not be a concern. Regardless, it is still a common and, to me, a valid argument. It is also a highly emotive reason.

Lastly, do consider that this line of reasoning can also come from the parents themselves...... think....... your son and daughter going to a foreign country forever, and you worry who is going to take care of you when you grow old. Again, you can come up with lots of counter arguments. But the fact remains that this is how people think, and this is how they will react.

Anonymous said...

"...We cannot afford to be generous to foreigners (PRs or otherwise) when our own true-blue citizens are struggling under the PAP's overly open-door policies..."

who say we cannot afford...??

we are rich and i tell u how we fix (any) problems sg style - we throw more money at it. (read: baby bonus, JCS, etc)

they lock up more of our cpf money so that we can afford to throw good money for bad via JCS and other schemes and LONG TERM investments... and throw more money to foreigners like lee jia wei, dat 17yr old badminton kid and all the B-grade foreigners in our universities (go and have a look during school term)...

where are they now???

how i wish i am a foreigner!! i will come to sg at all cost even though i cant make it in my own country!!!

hell, i would even write to forum to ask y i not getting MORE benefits... must test water rite??

lau min-tsek said...

Some comments on property ownership in Malaysia:

to those who say that you can own property in Malaysia you probably are unfamiliar with the way things are done over there.

Rules change all the time. and they can change very fast. Foreign ownership rules change depending on the political flavour of the day. Many seasoned property watchers know that property ownership laws and regulations can change suddenly, and I know of many people who often criticise the Malaysian government that they are not consistent in their policies.

As a rule of thumb in Malaysia, for those who wants to know, when times are bad, foreigners are welcome. When times are bad, or if property prices are too high, foreigners are not welcomed. The Malaysian government can do many things, like introduce taxes and tarriffs, restict the transfer of money etc to foreign buyers, even after they have bought the property. That is why many people will advise that if you want to invest in property in Malaysia, the best situation is that you or your spouse is a Malaysian and you put the Malaysian name down as the title owner.

lau min-tsek said...

There is another subtext here, and it is that citizenship is defined by benefits, mostly monetary. And the benefits or rights to citizenship is a cost to be paid in monetary terms.

Reading his letter, you don't see him talking about citizenship in terms of shared ideals or a common home or some sort of ideology. He talks about benefits...... like GST returns and what he can get from pro-singaporean policies and all sort of pecuniary interest.

When he talks about his why he deserve the benefits of a citizen (although he is not one), he talks about the taxes he pays, his high cost of living, buying a HDB etc. It is all about money.

It is only at the very end with one line that he mentions that he is forming a family unit in Singapore with a Singaporean. Even then, he framed it as a right for monetary benefits.

In the end, I find his thinking very Singaporean. His reasoning and concerns are quite typical of Singaporeans, isn't it? That the difference between a citizen and a foreigner is defined in terms of monetary benefits (and NS..... which will complicate the picture more).

Even if he refuses to be a Singaporean in name, he is already one in mind.

Gerry said...

Everyone is ignoring the most important point Adrian Gopali makes in his letter, which is that he pays taxes just like every other Singaporean, while not receiving the benefits that citizens enjoy. Accusing him of wanting to enjoy "the best of both worlds" is absurd when he seems to be suffering the worst of both worlds.

At this point, someone would probably raise the issue of NS. But recall that only half of Singaporeans need to serve NS. Females don't, and yet I see few arguing that male citizens should have priority over female citizens. That being the case, it is inconsistent to use it as an argument for a pro-Singaporean policy.

Jim said...

If Gopal wishes the same benefits as citizens, he should share the burden of the country too. Perhaps we should create another category of PRs who have same monetary privileges as citizens. In return, this group must the burden of our country, eg work for free part-time for 5 years at old folks home. We solve our expensive elderly care at the same time.

Anonymous said...

i do believe that his annoyance/dilemma/problem/excuse comes from the possibility that the property that his Malaysian parents are residing in now is under his name. im not familiar with Malaysian property taxation at all, but is it possible that if he changes his citizenship, he is subject to higher tiers of property taxes than he is now?

i agree with a post on top over the convenience of having a malaysian property under a malaysian citizen. my classmate is such an example. the whole family was malaysian citizenship. they transferred to Singaporean citizenship, all except their eldest daughter so that the title deed can be under her name.

Twentyfour_sucks said...

The more important question is : what is singapore's newspapers' agenda for publishing this letter by Adrian Gopal? Are they sinisterly trying to take the side of the so-called "foreign talents"? Why aren't they publishing more letters from S'poreans who want the govt to do more for citizens?

Anonymous said...

From what I have observed of my foreign PR colleagues, they only regard Singapore to be place to work and earn money. They may get married here if they wife is also in Singapore. But nevertheless, they do not regard this as their home. If anything happen to Singapore, they can just leave and return to their home country. For us Singaporeans, we can only stay put here. It is natural that the government should take care of citizens who regard here as their home. There is no 'contingency' country for us to go, if our the government which we elected don't take care of its citizens first, who will?

Nemo said...

This country has been deplorably overrun by Pesky Rats (PRs) and FTrash (FTs) who have leeched, benefited and are competing with us locals for scarce well-paying jobs.

For the longest time, these unwelcome Pesky Rats (PRs) have laughed and ridiculed at able-bodied Singaporean males for
doing their NS duty to keep out invaders and terrorists. The haughty conniving ones have even thought that not having that reservist disruption to their daily job routines is swell and made them more valuable to employers. What a sense of ill-bred cockiness!

Yes, there are many many Malaysian PRs who think they're being smart by keeping their Malaysian passports so they can earn in SING dollars and spend in Malaysian ringgit. By converting their remuneration into ringgit, their disposable income suddenly doubled or tripled. No wonder many of them can afford to buy swanky landed properties in their home towns after working here for just some few years.

Numerous Malaysian males (and females) have come to Singapore since they started secondary school education, went all the way to university, and never departed, but never took up Singapore citizenship. Think of the all the subsidized fees they have enjoyed and compare them to our own long suffering males who have lost out 2 precious years in their prime serving and taking up arms to protect the damned country, made to take an enforced break in their education, and lost out again in seniority to these Pesky Rats when they enter the workforce later.

Ironically, our males could have been thrown into battle with the Mud tribes (and potentially lost limbs and lives) if a conflict were to break out between Mudland and this little Red Dot. So, why should this Pappycock nincompoopery government continue to subsidize their living for years on end when these PRs have adamantly refused to take up citizenship and contribute their bit to protecting the country. Haven't they done enough sucking and leeching when they first arrived.

The Malaysian Pesky Rats are typically the 一脚两船 types and think that by retaining their PR status they have the best of both worlds and at the same time exploited that loophole to cunningly evade NS and reservist responsibilities. We all know better how they have the time and space to prosper when our own government repeatedly short-changed us.

What tiresome pests these foreign Rats have become. Now, one of these Rats has the temerity to write in and ask for citizen rights - he must have been delusional. Let him serve NS first and take his oath to fight for our
land even if it means fighting against his Malaysian brothers and cousins. Then, we'll talk.

Yet, those Pappycock Minstrels think the world of them and sing their praises no end, which is an insult to the intelligence of past and present generation of Singaporeans.

In short, this Adrian Gopal should have the cow sense to know that he is just a detested foreign guest worker in Singapore - nothing more. If Adrian Gopal wants to continue working here and earn dollars and not shoulder an ounce of country-protection duty, he should just shut his trap or else go home. After all, Najib is there to take care of Malaysians. And by holding on to your Malaysian passport, you have shown us where your loyalty lies.

In chaotic economic times like this where thousands of our own people have lost their jobs but have families to feed, Adrian the Pesky Rat has already long outstayed his welcome in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

Eh Wang, he say he donch wan citizenship so he can take care of parents. But hor, he physically in Singapore working whether he is Malaysian or Singaporean leh. Very confusing. So if he hold Malaysian passport then even when physically in Singapore, he can take care of parents?

Also, can someone hor, please write in to Press. Ask the PRs and foreigners asking to compete "fairly". Ask them will they ask their own country gahmen to do that to them? Will they vote in their politicians who preach open door labour policies removing the privileges/rights of citizenship?

Will they write a letter and all of them sign NOW to their gahmen ask their gahmen to let just Singaporeans compete for jobs in their countries like citizens? Plus fight for us the way they fight us to give them those prvileges? If they do it, ok loh, we let them stay also.

Or are they a bunch of hypocrites shouting differnt slogans in different geography?

Got people england powderful enough to write in anot?

Mr Wang Says So said...

"Everyone is ignoring the most important point Adrian Gopali makes in his letter, which is that he pays taxes just like every other Singaporean, while not receiving the benefits that citizens enjoy."

If I go to Malaysia, or to the US, or anywhere else, to work, I also have to pay taxes there.

It doesn't mean that I will or should get the benefits that Malaysians, or Americans do.

Mr Wang Says So said...

"i do believe that his annoyance/dilemma/problem/excuse comes from the possibility that the property that his Malaysian parents are residing in now is under his name. im not familiar with Malaysian property taxation at all, but is it possible that if he changes his citizenship, he is subject to higher tiers of property taxes than he is now?"

If you are a citizen of Country A, you will enjoy certain benefits and may suffer certain liabilities as a result of being a citizen of Country A.

If you are a citizen of Country B, you will enjoy certain benefits and may suffer certain liabilities as a result of being a citizen of Country B.

But it seems to me here that some non-citizens of Singapore are seeking to enjoy the benefits of Singapore citizenship, without actually becoming citizens, while they simultaneosly enjoy the benefits of being the citizens of their home country.

Anonymous said...

paying taxes only entities one to enjoy the infrastructure and right to live in singapore. It does not accord one the right to vote or enjoy full benefits of citizens.

Countries all over the world do differentiate between citizen and PR benefits, singapore is no different.

Further, as a PR, Gopal can bolt anytime once the benefits of working in singapore outlast its purpose, but not singaporean, we have no where to go.

Like MM Lee once said to the PR pilot Ryan, that he could go to his Australia (where he is PR and family is), while the Singaporean pilot has only singapore and his stakes are here.

live with your choice, gopal. I am sure you have gone thru that and decide that retaining your Malaysian citizenship is still more beneficial overall.

Can't have the cake and eat it and stop being annoying

Anonymous said...

I am getting real sick and tired and angry about these malaysian PRs. Hearing from them bragging about how they are able to afford Bigger and more Luxurious house(s)/propertie(s), Bigger and more Luxurious cars, and "growing" their money in their banks by the day, in malaysia, while earning a Singaporean salary. Yet, while all of us were retrenched sometime back, they were the ones who got new jobs first, unlike us Singaporean workers who are still unemployed up till this stage (mostly). Once in a while they will poke fun at the Singaporean males' plight/curse at having to serve National Service and being bugged down with Reservist (in case they forgot, we are defending and protecting their butts incidently), while they are taking from us, pilfering from our country's wealth/economy and dumping into theirs. Let me remind Mr Gopal here that I personally know of Chinese Mainlander ex-colleagues who had took up citizenships and have no qualms about taking care of their parents back in China, whatsoever. So please... dun rub salt into our wounds while you are here "healthy and good".

Anonymous said...

Mr. Wang commented:
> If I go to Malaysia, or to the US, or anywhere else, to work, I also have to pay taxes there. It doesn't mean that I will or should get the benefits that Malaysians, or Americans do.

Actually, if you go USA to work, you will have to pay much more taxes there compared to American citizens because many tax rebates and allowances (eg. education allowance, dependent allowance etc) can be claimed only by citizens. Moreover, after paying much more tax than American citizens, you get much less in benefits because all federal (i.e. government) scholarships and welfare aids (food stamps, unemployment benefits etc) are open only to citizens.

For this reason, many non-immigrants in USA strive to become citizens asap because citizenship = tax reduction + benefits increment!

For also the same reason, nobody want to become Singapore citizen, because as Singaporeans, you pay (about) the same tax as non-citizens, with no added benefits, but added liabilities!

Anonymous said...

Citizens = must do national service = meaningless!

foreign trash said...

Hahahahaha after reading so many comments, I can see how badly theoritical overseas trained scholars screwed up!

The top schools in the world plus top brains of Singapore ca ncreate such a crap situation! So positive + positive = negative! Hahahahaha

The audacity of these jokers to even ask for citizenship rights! My god (note no capital g), how much have de decended into indecency?! Soon they will ask to appoint MPs and Ministers in our Government to look after their taxes!

Anonymous said...

A few weeks ago, MM Lee said that the young ones should weather it (recession) through like our forefathers, praising our forefathers' good work.

But isn't this also the man who said we should get foreigners because our genes are of labourers and poor quality? Which statement of his should we trust?!

Anonymous said...

Many a strong words used in the comments above.

But when it is time to vote, PAP wins!

LPPL.

Impotent.

Ape said...

Thanks, Mr Wang, for pointing the link about foreigners owning property in Malaysia

lau min-tsek said...

"I am getting real sick and tired and angry about these malaysian PRs. Hearing from them bragging about how they are able to afford Bigger and more Luxurious house(s)/propertie(s), Bigger and more Luxurious cars, and "growing" their money in their banks by the day, in malaysia, while earning a Singaporean salary. Yet, while all of us were retrenched sometime back, they were the ones who got new jobs first, unlike us Singaporean workers who are still unemployed up till this stage (mostly). "


No need to get angry. Just do what Adrian is doing.

Become a Malaysian Citizen to get all the above benefits.

:P

Anonymous said...

To the many netizens that have made comments about the article.

When I wrote that article I had entitled it Pro-Singapore Policies also hurt Singaporeans. The title had been edited and changed.

My frame of mind when writing that comment was not to squeeze every dollar and cent out of the Singaporean government and put its citizens in misery, but was limited to how do I provide for my Singaporean other half and way of life in Singapore.

Though it has touched a raw nerve or two with both Singaporeans and PR alike, I would like to iterate the point that this article was posted with frame of a family nucleus that consisted of a Singaporean married to a Non-Singapore (a SPR). It was NOT framed to include all single SPR's or Expats working and living in Singapore.

We all make choices in life. Among these choices are where we choose to call home. I may have been raised and educated in Malaysia, but I have made the choice of Singapore as my home, where my heart is.

However I am tied with the filial responsibility to take care of the two people that brought me into this world, my father and mother.

Through the many speculations and suggestions, I do not own the home parents live in, they do. I have not had a Malaysian bank account since 2002.

I have lived my life entirely in Singapore from the day I step into this country. I have been cheated, made huge monetary loss - due to ignorance of laws and policies in Singapore and learnt many of these lessons the hard way. Even my CPF funds have been hurt badly almost 40% of what I have invested has been lost due to this economic slump.

Ask me to do NS? Sure why not? NS is not a liability to employment as several have stated. It is the nature of the employment industry in Singapore that penalises against people that have to serve NS, taking that NS reservist takes time away from the office. This prejudice also effect pregnant mothers and single parents and many other categories. For a person that has been retrenched 3 times in 9 years in Singapore, I can clearly atest to having no clear advantage in finding a job if I dont have to serve NS.

Please, I implore the well meaning netizens not compare this minority group with the many expatriates that come here on lucrative expat packages.

There are many rules and policies that SPR have to adhere to as well. My children who will be considered second generation PR's are also subjected to compulsory National Service, if they choose not to do National Service, and should they wish to come back or continue to reside in Singapore, they will not be able to until they serve NS.

When Singapore was formed and gained independence, persons from the Federated States of Malaya that were given the option of taking up Singapore citizenship had to serve in a government position for 10 years. I know many individuals in that category who did. Who today are in their 50's and 60's. If it is something that should surface again in todays context, put me on the band wagon.

I do not in any context disagree with the Singaporean governments stand of being pro-Singaporean. As I had stated, this is a noble policy, though there is a small marginalized group that will suffer from it.

If I were a citizen, it would have been exactly what I would have wanted to my government to do.

Those of us that are from what one netizen has termed the "mud" country know, even back home, a pro-citizen policy doesnt help as there is still marginalization by race and religion. Something that in my view is minimal in Singapore. And I am full of praise for employers that look at your skills and not the colour of your skin to employ you. The overall look of the Singapore government bellies the same great look. A fully multi-cultural government that allows question and debate of its policies and that its people and the opposition do not have to resort to drastic demonstrations and bad politics to get the point across - look around the region, this is happening in Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia.

As for the question often put to me by my friends that have run home to Malaysia when the times got bad, my answer to them has always been.

"It's like why do you love the women that you do, how do you know that, that women is the one for you. It's the same feeling that I have for Singapore. All I know, is that I love my life here in Singapore, not for it's simplicity, but it's real life. I call Singapore home."

Malaysia maybe my country of origin, but its not my home. This Red Dot is my home. And I will stand up against anyone that will take my home away from me.

It is has also been stated several times by the PM and many politicians in Singapore, that we have to maintain our filial responsibility to our parents.

This is a dilemma that people like me are in, thorn between being filial to my parents and my loyalty for my home. It is a feeling that believe you do not want to be in, it can set you to tears.

In one instance you will be chastised as a traitor to you country of origin, on the other instance you will be chastised for being a leech sucking everything (money, jobs and other) from your chosen home. You would not want to be in that dilemma either. It tears the heart out. It has taken me many tears and sleepness nights and many packets of cigarettes to overcome and ocme to terms with.

I thank you for also saying that I think like a Singaporean, I am proud to be branded such.

Now my fellow Malaysian are going to call me a traitor and hang my corpse out to dry, but nonetheless. I made a choice, I chose my life, my home and my family to be Singapore.

I will challenge anyone that tells me that Singapore is not my home and I will fervently and without hesitation defend my home.

If my parents should one day decide to come here and live at home with me in Singapore, it would be one of the best things that could happen to me.

Again I want to firmly press the point that Singapore is my home. I will live, love and die in Singapore.

I have made my choice and you can chastise me, crucify me or hang me from the highest gibbets that you can find, I love Singapore.

Adrian Gopal

Anonymous said...

Dear Adrian Gopal,

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts and intention of your article.

Moral of the story: don't write to ppl who can't help you but instead make a meal out of your article just to create sparks and fan flames of fire so that they can sell one more copy of the papers we local-born singaporeans use to line our tables during dinner or to pick up our pet's poo.

instead, i suggest you suffer the injustice quietly like all of us and shrug it off until the 66% of us decides to wake up and embrace change. welcome to singawhore.

oh, did i welcome you to singawhore?

Anonymous said...

I am an Australian citizen by migration. It is not easy to be an Australian citizen (don't believe me try applying). In fact it is fair and appropriate that becoming a citizen to a great country is never easy. So I am always surprise when I hear fro my friends how easy it is to become a Singapore PR and to enjoy advantages over citizens. In Australia it is the other way around: citizens come first, PRs ust earn the right.

Anonymous said...

Bravo, Mr. Gopal.

Anonymous said...

Then why not just convert to a Singapore citizen? U have not explain why u cannot continue to take care of your aged parents by renouncing yr msian citizenship?

Ape said...

Adrian Gopal,

Indeed, it seems that some of us has misunderstood you. However, you clarify a bit more on two points:-

1) How has you (being a PR) affected your spouse (who is a SGP citizen)?

2) What is it that you cannot do (in terms of filial piety) as a Singaporean but you can as a Malaysian?

Anonymous said...

"...It is not easy to be an Australian citizen (don't believe me try applying). In fact it is fair and appropriate that becoming a citizen to a great country is never easy. So I am always surprise when I hear fro my friends how easy it is to become a Singapore PR...."

bro, are you implying we are not a great country?? u better dont come here.. we will hang you for making such seditious comments!!

we r great in our own right and by our own standards!! We can squeeze 100k ppl on 1 train during peak hours and we have the most flexible pension fund in the world!! we have so many guinness world records like the largest roti prata made or the most highly paid politicians in the world. Soon, we will have the record of the largest loss made by a SWF and the least number of local citizens in a country!!!!!! so dun even suggest we are not great. LOL!!!

KaiShan said...

I am not too sure what the privileges of citizenship are, children of PR have to do NS as well, so PR have duties as much as citizens do, but I am sure that the taxes paid by foreign talent subsidise the HDBs that most of the citizenry live in, and subsidise the health and education systems that support most of the citizenry. So many foreigners resident in Singapore are responsible for ensuring that Singapore has a successful economy and the wherewithal to deliver good social services.

I am not sure that I like the accusation that we take your jobs; I am sure that Singaporean companies would not be hiring expensive foreign expertise if they could find locals at half the cost capable of doing the job. And would it not be more accurate to say of foreign companies that they are providing Singaporeans with jobs?

But I am not sure that I see the 'benefits' of citizenship referred to. It is my personal intention to go for citizenship should I settle in and remain long enough to qualify. But that is because I find Singapore is safer and politically freer than Australia and I enjoy the culture more. It is not because I see any housing or health benefits.

I can tell you that if I do take up SG citizenship then due to Australian laws it would be harder for me to take care of my parents back in Oz.

At the end of this I cannot argue with a countrys right to take care of its own citizens first; to give preferential treatment (such as subsidised housing, education, and health) to citizens. It is the crowning and glorious achievement of Singapores one-party fascist state that they have successfully combined a mix of caring social programmes for their citizens with the wise foreign talent policy that can fund these.

Mr Wang Says So said...

See the title of Adrian Gopal's letter. The benefits that he probably has in mind are the new ones under the Job Credit scheme, whereby the S'pore government will subsidise employers' costs of hiring employees and keeping them hired. The question then would be whether this scheme should extend to helping non-citizens keep their jobs.

Mr Wang Says So said...

"children of PR have to do NS as well, so PR have duties as much as citizens do,"

Hardly. Do you have to spend three weeks per year away from home, on military training, until age 40 or 50?

Anonymous said...

I think he has his eye on his inheritence too(i.e he's thinking about the hefty estate duty to be paid if the Malaysian property is left to a non-Malaysian.)

My cousin (an only child), will face this problem too when her parents in Malaysia go, as she took up S'pore cit for promotion reasons.

Singaporean said...

Khayce said...

I think there might be a few more practical problems than what is readily apparent.

For example, I'm given to understand that certain bank accounts in Malaysia can only be held by Malaysian citizens. When one becomes a Singaporean, the bank accounts need to be closed or transfered to another name.
=============================

Sorry to pour cold water, friend. I am a Singaporean and I have two bank accounts in Malaysia. There is no restrictions for foreigners to open bank accounts in Malaysia. In fact, the Malaysian govt encourages foreigners to do so. The more money you can put into any of the Malaysian banks the better for their country.

Anthony said...

Hi Singaporean,

My experience has been just the opposite - there were all sorts of minimum balance, operating fees and residency requirements rubbish that I had to put up with, that mysteriously vanished once I opted instead to open a joint account with a Malaysian.

Furthermore, there is at least one account that I -know- is available only to Malaysians that pays premium interest. I know this because I've tried to invest in this but to no avail.

Sure, I know there are Malaysian accounts held by Singaporeans. My mother was Malaysian and she's held on to her bank accounts. The reverse does nothing to displace my point - that there exist bank accounts that require/prefer Malaysian citizens to operate and shifting these into different/new accounts may represent a loss/hassle/might simply not be possible.

Anonymous said...

KaiShan - "It is the crowning and glorious achievement of Singapores one-party fascist state that they have successfully combined a mix of caring social programmes for their citizens with the wise foreign talent policy that can fund these."

Are you for real? Bollocks to all that you've written.

Have you seen forlorn old men and women roaming the streets in Singapore (oftentimes late at night) scrambling around trash bins for discarded card boards and empty soda cans which they then pick up and sell for a pittance. To survive and have a meal, this is what they have to do. And have you seen the numerous elderly folks clearing trays and cleaning up tables in the food courts that you've patronized. In Australia, do you see elderly people subjected to such undignified plight and hopelessness when they should be living in retirement in their old age which surely the state can provide for. Even in communist China, such a sight of exploiting the old and weak to become janitors and cleaners is never heard off.

It is in Uniquely Singapore that such Dickensian exploitation has gone on for the longest time - all in the name that Welfarism is a dirty word and that the whole concept erodes a person's competitiveness. Open your eyes (and your ears) and don't just swallow all the spin stories and propaganda that you've read the Shitty Times.

What you've got right is just the part about the one-party fascist state.

And what do you really know, Aussie? You're just another opportunistic FTrash from down-under who has not been here long enough to understand our society ills and now muscling in to get at our well-paying jobs.

Anthony said...

Uh, Singaporean, sorry. Anthony = Khayce.

FILTHS said...

Aussie, I mean no disrespect, but you must first earn my respect.

For firstly, you do not even begin or attempt to understand why we are so expensive!

Do you know how "subsidies" are calculated in Singapore? They call it a market subsidy. It is not a costs subsidy. Try to understand that difference first.

Do you know that while we are penalised by CPF instead of Gov assistance or pensions, there are Gov civil servants on pension?

Do you know how the electricity price of Singapore is calculated?

Do you understand the rental market and rental policies for stalls and business spaces in retail malls work?

Do you know that our labour Union is actually an employer, and maybe one of the largest in Singapore!

Now, tell me where did all the costs of living come from towards pushing Singaporean salaries to so high?

And you just barely scratch the surface with these.

You paid taxes for our subsidies? Like we just sit on our butts and watch the sunset whole day relaying on your pittence?

"Talent" has a definition. Potential, and real.

It does seem like most of the foreign ones we attract, have some of the former, and none of the latter.

Anonymous said...

Take, take, take. That's what all these foreign leeches like to do in Singapore. Sure, Gopal sure loves to LIVE it up in safe Singapore, loves to make LOVE to Singaporean woman, of course he loves Singapore.
Want to be filial to your parents? Go back there and be filial loh! Whether you take up citizenship here does not affect that one bit but the fact that you are not by their side and far away does. So your choice is clear right?
It is ridiculous that he can call Singapore his home and emphasized that he will defend his home when he did not even want to take up citizenship and go for NS. How is he going to defend? Using his mouth is it? Singapore is not your home, stop deluding yourself. You are not born here, neither are you a citizen. So why don't Gopal balek kampong and leave his house and job to a true blue Singaporean family who have served NS and can truly defend their home?

Anonymous said...

I believe their main bugbear is the no dual citizenship rule. The government should just do away with this archaic rule, once and for all and then we will see more PRs taking up citizenship. It may be a moot point for Adrian because his current country of citizenship does not permit dual citizenship, as well, but for others who are citizens of Western countries which have no such prohibitions, I am very confident they will be a lot more amenable to paint their blue ics pink.

Angry Ah Pat said...

To Anon 1:17 PM

"You paid taxes for our subsidies? Like we just sit on our butts and watch the sunset whole day relaying on your pittance?"

Way to go! You've said what I was too frustrated to express yesterday after reading Mr Kaishan's oh-so-foreign-talented comments. Mr Kaishan, please get your facts right about so-called "subsidised" housing in Singapore before you even comment about it, ya? After all, you should be talented enough to do/have done that.

And it seems like many so-called FTs think that they're doing as much, if not more, for the country as the born-and-bred Singaporean citizens here. They also like to say things like, "The company could not find a local (Singaporean) suitable enough for this position and that's why I'm here." Yes, I believe such cases are possible, but don't even think of using it as an excuse to put us down and make us kowtow to you for "contributing" to the society.

It is only right that in every country, citizens come first, then permanent residents, and then foreign workers/talents etc and so on.

And Adrian Gopal, you think we Singaporeans are stupid eh? You came here, trying to justify yourself, and yet you didn't/can't even address the questions raised in this post (why can't you take care of your parents if you're a Singapore citizen, how do you take care of them since you're physically in Singapore anyway...). I'm not sure if we need foreign "talents" like you.

Old-Timer said...

KaiShan - "..but I am sure that the taxes paid by foreign talent subsidise the HDBs that most of the citizenry live in, and subsidise the health and education systems that support most of the citizenry."

Aussie-man, I don't know what you've been smoking but if you had lived here long enough to understand things better (and
learn some manners), you would know the cunning doublespeak of "market subsidy" as far as HDB flats are concerned.

"Market Subsidy" simply means no direct subsidy at all and allows HDB as a corporation to make very fat profits when they brokered a 99-year paper lease to unwary peasant folks who aren't that savvy enough to know the real difference between property ownership and signing up for a 99-year lease agreement. The listed price of HDB flats are usually much higher than actual construction costs. So think, which party stand to make obscene monetary gains from exploiting this twisted-logic about "subsidized" HDB flats?

Moreover, the whole rent of that 99-lease agreement has to be paid out front. Paying off this monstrous mortgage debt for these artfully-manipulated and overpriced 99-year lease agreements, invariably over the period of their entire working life, has depleted the CPF saving accounts of many working families,leaving them with scant little funds to fend for themselves when they go into retirement in old age. What is so callous and mean about the present administration is that the state doesn't provide for retirement and social security benefits such as what Australia provides for her retired folks. They are not known as Singapore Inc for nothing. Now, do you still want to take up citizenship here?

In the late 70s, 80s and up to pre-Asian financial crisis 1997, Singapore together with HK, Taiwan and S Korea were known as the 4 roaring tiger economies. PR and FT leeches weren't here in the numbers you see today, but we were growing and gelling as a nation of do-ers and very very successful at what we did, all without the false claims and pretense of fake talents and snobs like you.

The relentless influx of foreigners into our country is all due to the misguided and pompous policies of the present traitorous swines in parliament playing with eugenics and tinkering disastrously with population control schemes. When the "Stop at 2" population control policy fell flat on their faces, which mightily aggravates the already significantly declining birth rate of recent years, LKY and his sycophants have no choice but to resort to importing scums and rejects like you - people who couldn't find decent jobs in your own countries. To make the situation more palatable to the peasant folks, those dirty politicians starting coining fancy terms like "Foreign Talents" to make things easier to swallow when better-paying jobs goes out to the newly arrived FTs and PRs. Frankly, there's nothing special about the new immigrants - they've just arrived to find jobs and make a buck or two. But what makes it mind-boggling and disgusting is that the newly-arrived immigrants actually start to believe that they're special talents - and habitually thumb their noses despicably at the displaced locals. A lie, repeated often enough, starts to sounds like the truth.

If you sauntered into any HDB neighborhood coffeeshops, you can easily spot the PRC immigrant selling dim-sum over the counter, or the other PRC immigrant frying unpalatable and unauthentic chao kway tiao, and so on. Then, there's that scantily clad Tiger beer maid flirting shamelessly with her regulars, pouring lager into over-size glasses is also a PRC immigrant worker. Go figure yourself, are these people Foreign Talents or Fake Talents or simply Foreign Trash? There is an official song and dance about FTs creating jobs for Singaporeans. I can't in the world figure how the 3 examples provided give credence to the official stance that the wanton import of these FTs has a multiplier effect on job creation. Unless you're some world renown scientist who has cloned Dolly the sheep in your resume, FTs and PRs alike have stolen our jobs. Period. [Incidentally, that chap who cloned Dolly has already upstaked and returned home.]

The nagging suspicion is that the real motive of those swines is to import as many non-Malays as possible to balance against the unusually highly fertility rate of Malays in this damned little Red Dot and keep the Chinese:Malay:Indian racial proportions at 75:15:10 status quo. If the racial ratios creep towards 50:40:10, this would skew the balance of powers and dent the Chinese hold on the political power hierarchy which they now monopolize by virtue of their
overwhelming numbers in the populace. But if you've read about a certain ex-footballer by the name of Fundy Ahmud, and count the number of children he has actually produced and do some extrapolation about the growth of that particular ethnic group, you might just make out what the real game is about. Gives you the chills doesn't it, to know that the
population numbers game is still being played out below the surface of all these FTs/PRs hullabaloo. So in essence, non-Malay foreigners like yourself are allowed to be imported en masse just to make up the numbers, to shore up the dwindling Chinese figures against the Malays' superb strike rate at producing babies. In their utter despicable and feeble attempts to ram twisted logic down the throats of the oftentimes unquestioning public, scums + rejects + trash of Austra-land and beermaids + streetwalkers + so-so general skilled workers etc of PRC-land, conditionally of the non-Malay bloodline are suddenly termed foreign "talent" immigrants.

That's the "brilliance" of this cold, callous, calculating but fumbling administration, clueless and disconnected from the people in the streets, totally irresponsible and shameless about losing billion of dollars of tax-payer money from their reckless punts and plays in western investment banks, that you're waxing lyrical about.

Face it, Aussie - you're a swell-headed moron. For making the overreaching and delusional statement that taxes paid by FTrashs like you goes to subsidize the construction of our living quarters, it goes to show the size of your pea brain. On top of that, you're a leech. And when I read this "....But that is because I find Singapore is ..politically freer than Australia...", I start to wonder whether you're a real or fake Aussie. Obviously, you have no notion of what political freedom is all about if you can artfully write down this misguided statement. Enuff said.

Mr Wang Says So said...

Folks:

Let's keep the general tone of this discussion a little more civil. Or else I may have to refrain from publishing some comments. Thanks.

ILMA said...

Where does that leave you Mr Gopal? Why, your home country of course!

Anonymous said...

All this brouhaha about a select group of people who are able to have their cake and eat it.

Why shouldn't they?
Who wouldn't?
Would you?

Singaporeans really need to ask themselves WHO allows these non-citizens of Singapore enjoy the benefits of Singapore citizenship, without actually becoming citizens, while they simultaneously enjoy the benefits of being the citizens of their home country.

No use thumping Adrian, as he is doing what any rational person will do - achieve what's best for his situation and his family.

KaiShan said...

First comment in general; so I should cut down on the sense and style of humour that I am used to as so many readers obviously do not understand Australians.

Second to Mr Wang; I may not have to spend time away from home on NS duties every year until I am 40. But if I stay here then won't my children? (Well, the male ones - I do have an issue with NS being male-only.)

Thirdly to 'anonymous'; strange to say, but in Australia, where the elderly get almost free housing, free health and medication, and quite reasonable pensions, yes, you do still see old men searching through rubbish tins for cans and bottles to sell for recycling. So that argument doesn't work with me. Further more, whilst your comments, which I infer to indicate your support for a little more welfare provision and compassion for the people from the government, may sound very good, I would like to point out that there are consequences to such activities, and countries that go down that route do end up with much higher taxation at the least. And, if you look at the Anglo countries, the administration of such schemes leads to a bureaucratic mindset that, in turn, leads to considerable social disharmony. Do you really wish that?

Fourthly to 'Old Timer', I am a business analyst, but strange as it may sound I did work at SARDI for a time and I did work with the scientists that cloned Dolly. (I did their budgets and made a project costing model for them.) Small world that you bring that up.

Fifthly in general, I honestly was referring to educated highly skilled professionals when I referred to foreign talent. But on the issue of importing unskilled labour, it does seem to me that those countries that do so do appear to be wealthier than those that do not; so is it really bad thing for Singapore? (Not trying to confuse cause and effect though.)

Sixthly to 'Angry Ah Pat', sorry if I sounded angry when I get pissed off at some people dissing us when your government so politely asks us to come here. My intention, once I settle in, is to provide jobs for Singaporeans, as starting new businesses is very hard where I come from. As for getting my facts straight on subsidised housing; honestly I wouldn't know, just a quick look at how locals can get accommodation when they earn $2,000 or $3,000 per month whereas I am currently paying for a small two bedroom flat as much as I paid for a four bedroom house with two large living rooms and on 3,0000 square metres of beautiful land in SA, so it seems to me that locals are indeed getting cheaper accommodation than expats. And I agree with you that it is only right and proper for any country to consider locals first - did I not say the same in my first post?

Seventhly, and finally, in general it would seem that most of you wish this to be a purely locals only discussion forum and any foreigner that dares enter into debate is to be flamed into non-existence. Maybe that makes you feel a lot better, but does it help you to understand all sides of an issue?

KaiShan said...

Oh, sorry, I have to add one more thing for 'Old Timer'; you have every right to state that I may not know much about Singapore, however it is quite obvious from your final paragraph where you give vent fully to your spleen that you know nothing about Australia. It is not the politically free country that you seem to idealise it as, there are a lot of people in gaol in Australia for thought crimes, for daring to state true facts that upset some political forces. Also it is very corrupt, I come from a family that has been involved in politics at local and state levels, I have witnessed it myself - you have not. I did not make the statement that I feel politically freer in Singapore lightly, it is a simple truth. It may not sit well with many Singaporeans who seem to like to imagine that their country is an evil dictatorship, but it is quite simply what I honestly believe. When I walk down the street here the sight of gun carrying uniformed police officers does not instinctively fill me with concern as it does in Australia where I have seen them so often used as means of political oppression against people I know. I have different experiences than you, accept this and move on, don't try to deny my reality because it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

Onlooker said...

Just a thought,Taxes are paid to maintain the infrastructures that were build in place for people to use them to carry on with their business.
It is also to pay the NS men who received pittance to protect the economy that was overran with Position fillers "Talents".
If Singapore were to be in conflict with the place of your origin, will you stay in your "Home" or would you suddenly be more filial and return to be more filial?
Enjoy your duo advantages while you still can.But kindly do not ask for more when you can't even commit yourself.
The fiscal dilemma you stated actually proves that you values monetary situation more than the society that you live in.
Also remember if the garment cannot and will not acknowledge it's own citizens efforts.
It will not be supported by it's citizens.
That what drove you here anyway, isn't it?

Fox said...

KaiShan:

"It is not the politically free country that you seem to idealise it as, there are a lot of people in gaol in Australia for thought crimes, for daring to state true facts that upset some political forces."

Oh please.

Name the people who are in the slammer for committing 'thought crimes'.

Anonymous said...

KaiShan: "Thirdly to 'anonymous'; strange to say, but in Australia, where the elderly get almost free housing, free health and medication, and quite reasonable pensions, yes, you do still see old men searching through rubbish tins for cans and bottles to sell for recycling. So that argument doesn't work with me......, and countries that go down that route do end up with much higher taxation at the least. And, if you look at the Anglo countries, the administration of such schemes leads to a bureaucratic mindset that, in turn, leads to considerable social disharmony. Do you really wish that?"

I would much prefer a calibrated form of Welfarism for elderly citizens (not to PRs & FTs) any time than seeing them rummaging thru dustbins for something useful trade for a few pathetic coins. I am not talking abt healthy, educated, employable people occasionally out of work, and going on the dole. I am pointing out the real old folks, in their 60s, 70s, 80s and so on, being forced to fight for scraps and living out a cruel existence on piteous self-reliance during their sunset years becoz the state is too tight-fisted to dispense with a few decent bobs.

Also, you could be making a unfounded sweeping statement abt the old men in Australia looking for scraps to sell for recycling. Just maybe, these are illegal immigrations etc who doesn't qualify for social benefits under Oz laws. Have you personally stop one and ask him why he needs to look for pathetic scraps when Oz provides him with "quite reasonable pensions"?

Seriously, countries like Norway, Canada, Oz etc can't be wrong if the social benefit schemes they have administered are all crap. Going along the same vein of your argument, the citizenry of these countries would have long voted the government out if Social Welfare goes against the grain of their characters and the source of their beliefs.

Or do you prefer to see little Red Dot accumulating trillion-dollar reserves but the monetary benefits only largely goes to reward the incumbent political party members with over-sized million-dollar salary payouts and opulent living perks, leaving crumbs and bits to trickle down to the impoverished elderly peasantry.

When older folks like myself first started work, our contribution to the CPF savings scheme is 50% (25% employee + 25% employer) of our monthly wage which is then used to build up for our retirement "nest egg". Not many people know this now but with the highest saving rate known in the world at that time but alas, now seen more as a form of enforced taxation since we don't get to see the money back at 55 years anymore, why can't the incumbent swines in parliament see it fit to release the accumulated saving funds for "free housing, free health and medication, and quite reasonable pensions" when we have aged. Becoz, since CPF contribution now operates more like a high tax collection, we deserve more social welfare benefits.

Or have they now decided to treat our hard-earned CPF funds and reserves as their gambling chips which they have blown investing into imploding western investment banks like Citigroup, ML, UBS and ABC Learning of Oz etc without accountability and remorse? Even when handsome investment profits were made before the onset of this credit crunch crisis, does anyone see the reserves specifically benefiting the citizenry at all? I don't.

If you said corruption in Oz is bad, I'll say legalized corruption in a one-party fascist state is sheer madness, is despicably disrespectful of the electorate and which cannibalizes the entire spirit of the nation, and is much much worse in comparison.

Trust me, I've heard enough lies being told here in the little Red Dot. And yes, you don't know diddly-squat to make comments about us locals.

Anonymous said...

just a quick look at how locals can get accommodation when they earn $2,000 or $3,000 per month whereas I am currently paying for a small two bedroom flat as much as I paid for a four bedroom house with two large living rooms and on 3,0000 square metres of beautiful land in SA, so it seems to me that locals are indeed getting cheaper accommodation than expats.

Compare apples to apples. Compare the price you pay as a citizen for accommodation in SA, against the price we pay for accommodation as citizen in SG.

Then you know we are subsidising our gahmen to house us. While your gahmen is not needing such type subsidies!

Anonymous said...

I think Mr Gopal would be pleased to know that his Malaysian govt would be more than happy if more non-bumiputras, that is the ethnic Malaysian Chinese & ethnic Malaysian Indians take up foreign citizenship & one day leave Malaysia with almost 99.999% Malay homogeneous population as in like Japan & South Korea where both societies are homogeneous. That is what Malaysian govt wants eventually judging from all the hoo ha surrounding racial politics in Malaysia.

As for Gopal's reasoning of being physically close to his parents in Malaysia, I don't understand his reply in the comments section that he has posted. Since he has almost spent the majority of his adult life span in Spore physically apart from his parents in Malaysia, assuming that he still holds a full time job, he still has to abide by his company's paid leave number of vacation days allowance. So, what would attaining Spore citizenship do to re-calibrate the distance between Spore & his parents Malaysian hometown, the physical distance remains the same right in terms of the no of kilometres he has to travel by air, coach or train? Also, if an illness strikes his parents in the past, he was still tied to an employer in Spore who still demands that he sticks by the paid leave allowance to see his parents.

This chap Gopal has some warped & illogical thinking.

Old-Timer said...

KaiShan, care to elaborate what those thought crimes are?

You've got a nerve harboring that Fredrick bloke in your East Coast condo, knowing full well that he's got an arrest warrant issued by the German poodles out for his butt. Just becoz WKS boys brigade got their hands full searching for Mas and busting cig smuggling syndicates, and Fred quietly slipped in and went out, you're now all praise and starry-eye about Harryland being "a civilized and free nation" and one that is "politically freer" than Australia and Germany. All these gushing idolizing statements just becoz Fred didn't get busted here.

Blimey! Western democratic nations simply don't issued arrest warrants lightly for people's having idyllic afternoon thoughts, so why don't you clear the air?

Secondly, Alan Coleman (the scientist who's in the team that cloned Dolly) was here for a short period. Did your project costing model frighten him so much that Alan opt to hightail it back home? He must have seen and heard enough in that short span to want out, eh? Or was that just a handsomely paid holiday with time out to frolic in the tropical sun for Alan? If you've read the Dr Lee Wei Ling vs Philip Yeo series of incriminating letters, you would probably have made some early conclusion that Biopolis is another pipe dream. Incidentally, the other 2 highly-touted foreign-talent scientists, David and Brigitte Lane have also called it quits. No less a prominent figure than Dr Lee has scathingly remarked that "billions of dollars have been spent without achieving significant results (by these footloose foreign talents)." She had earlier called for a reassessment of Singapore's biotech strategy (and for the administration concerned to stop sponsor fantasy holidays for money-minded foreign scientists).

Thirdly, you've been harping about providing jobs for Singaporeans. But what you've blogged on Feb 19 revealed that you've actually applied for more than twenty jobs just last week, ... with no conceivable job opening that matches the $100/hour skill you profess to possess. Face it, FT, you've overpriced yourself in this depressed job market. Now, wait a minute, aren't you competing with us locals for those scarce and lucrative $100/hour jobs when you've blatantly stated matter-of-fact that you're going to provide Singaporeans with jobs. Warped, twisted logic or simply messed up in your head.

All lies.

Anonymous said...

Adrian Gopal, why don't you take a leaf from your fellow countryman here: http://www.asiaone.com/print/Business/My%2BMoney/Building%2BYour%2BNest%2BEgg/Investments%2BAnd%2BSavings/Story/A1Story20081209-106530.html

He's in virtually the same situation as you. He's a Malaysian, and a SPR with a Singaporean wife, with at least a mum back home in Kuantan. Yet, that's where the similarities end. He's got a fully paid for condo, and he's only 38!! Now that is a real foreign talent, one we Singaporeans would not mind having in our midst. He does not jumping up and down asking for citizen privileges, simply because being a true talent, he does not need it, unlike fake, opportunistic ones like yourself.

Concerned said...

When you are a guest in your friend's house, you are expected to behave like a guest. To behave otherwise would be uncivilized and barbaristic. Similarly, when you are a guest in a foreign country, behave like a guest and don't demand things that the owners do not let you have, unless you have a colonial or barbarian mentality.

Anonymous said...

renouncing Malaysian citizenship is nothing great,unless he is a "bumiputra"

Anonymous said...

It is all fine and well if you exchange Malaysian citizenship for a US, European, Australian or NZ one. Giving it up in exchange for a Singaporean one is like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. Back there, you are discriminated by being a non-bumiputra. In Singapore, once you become a citizen, you will be discriminated against because you are now no longer a foreign talent.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
I think Mr Gopal would be pleased to know that his Malaysian govt would be more than happy if more non-bumiputras, that is the ethnic Malaysian Chinese & ethnic Malaysian Indians take up foreign citizenship & one day leave Malaysia with almost 99.999% Malay homogeneous population as in like Japan & South Korea where both societies are homogeneous. That is what Malaysian govt wants eventually judging from all the hoo ha surrounding racial politics in Malaysia."

Yes, you're right. One more. Currently, the majority Muslims have ganged up against the non-Muslims by legislating all kinds of entitlements & privileges in their favour. However, once the non-Muslims are gone, productivity is also gone and the pie shrinks. Then they will go after themselves as their numbers usually grow very fast. This is their psychic.

Look at the Muslim Sunnis battling the Muslim Shites. Did you know in Indonesia, despite being Indonesians, in the process of transmigration, Muslims see ethnicity first. The Acehnese don't welcome the migrant Javanese into Aceh, the Dayaks in Kalimantan kill the Madurese & Javanese migrants, etc.

Well, once the non-Muslims are gone, probably the majority Muslim Malaysians of Indonesian descent will go after the Mamaks (Indian Muslims). After that, amongst themselves ethnically, as in Indonesia.

Georgies said...

Being a Singapore Citizen by birth had its downside, I being one of them. Having served my NS and worked for a year to save enough to come to England for further studies with partime work to help finance my educational expenses. The years I had to renew my exist permit annually and the trouble I had to suffer to renew my passport annually was just too much to pay to be a citizen. I was pleased I didn't land myself ajob in 1984 when I went back to Singapore to attend my father funneral. I am now a proud British citizen although I am treathen with prosecution if I ever enter Singapore.I had never committed any crime except that I wanted to withdraw my CPF fund when I reached the age of 55. I was advised to renounce my citizenship and like a fool, I follow the advice from CPF. It was a big mistake as I receive a letter soon afterward from Singapore Immigration treathening me with prosecution if I try to enter Singapore for offences committed while I was a Singpapore citizen. I was never given any notice before and I felt that the government is using treat to intimidate its citizen including ex-citizen.

Georgies said...

Singaporean somehow believed that they are living in paradise Island and had a near perfect government.Attacking someone who do not share their view, seemed to me, a very narrow mind set. Sadly not dissimilar to the way the ruling party act. Political freedom in Australia, UK, Europe and USA is vastly more superior then Pardise Island which I had abandoned, thank God.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
Your commet about Malaysian and other guest workers who worked in Paradise Island but wished to retain their original citizenship is harsh. Guest workers had contributed to the prosperity of Paradise Island and had enriched all Singaporean.How many country could affort to pay its ministers million of dollar a year in wages?

Georgies said...

Anonymous you had hit it spot on. Come election PAP always win. Any one in Paradise Island ever ask why? I had done my NS and lived all my adult life in UK and so I was one of those that had done my share but never receive my fair share of goodies? I am glad I had left Paradise Island and lived in England all these years. I had no regret at all and on final analysis I believed I had made the right decision. Paradise Island citizen should learn to think outside the box and sometime ask some serious question. I took SMM Lee's advice and move on to seek my fortune except I had to save up for my own air fair. SMM Lee offered in one of his election speeches that Paradise Island government would be glad to pay for a airline ticket for those who want to leave. I am glad I did after my NS and now my children are graduating from Oxford by the end of the year and I can look forward to travelling round the world. Paradise Island is like a mirage rule by a Dynasty and if any thinking Singaporean spend the time to look carefully its past history maybe they may think differently and not be so gullible.

Georgies said...

Anonymous,
Although UK permit its citizen/subject to have dual citizenship, Paradise Island does not. I was a Singapore citizen by birth and had done my NS and left Paradise island for further studies but I made the mistake of trying to withdraw my CPF when I was 55 year old.I had to produce documentation etc and soon after I received a letter from Singapore Immigration Authority that I MUST renounce my British citizenship. But this time round, I was determined not to be lead by the nose and promply renounce my Paradise Island citizenship as all my children are British citizen.To be honest, I only hoped one day some true democrate in the PAP ruling party come along and restore true democracy in Singapore where free speech and free election with real choices are available.Being good in PR only create a mirage and when time are hard like at the moment with more to come then free thinking people will begin to ask some serious question.

Nemo said...

Georgies,

You been away from little Red Dot for far too long :,) Unless you're right in it and experience the messiness of it daily, you'll miss the perplexity and unfairness of it all. Singaporeans (including newly converted immigrants) now only made up 65% of the population. FTs and PRs made up the remainder 35%. That's a big chunk. And it's downright stifling when you take the MRT and encounter strange accents wherever you go. The way the Ministars and the sycophantic Press are going about it, true-blue Singaporeans born, bred and schooled here have been stealthily oppressed and delegated to become second-class citizens in our own backyard. Strangely, the government of the day seems intent to trumpet loudly into our faces the arrival of these immigrant guest workers as "foreign talents", with the economic contribution and rights of citizens coming a distant second. My view is that they have overdone it and a sense of unbearable bitterness has already set in among us locals. What talent? Even S-Pass holders are classified as foreign talents. What utter rubbish! The immigrant workers are here to compete for jobs just like anyone else. And jobs are getting downright scarce during this economic downturn.

This PAP administration is the best government these PRs and FTs ever got - ironic but true. Policies are artfully conceived and structured for their benefits. Locals felt betrayed.

When scholarships (without bonds) are freely given by the droves to foreign students (PRCians, Burmese, Vietnamese etc) and local students drew the short end of the stick, we just know this administration stinks. (Think about that top-scoring O'levels Malaysian girl on scholarship who doesn't even bother to come back to collect her certificate and now prefer to continue her education in Malaysia. What a snub!)

Singapore males bust their butts going thru fulltime NS and live to encounter more trouble and heartbreak as an operationally ready NSman when they failed their IPPT tests. Don't believe, read the other article - The SAF Needs To Fix Its RT System.

As for your "Guest workers had contributed to the prosperity of Paradise Island and had enriched all Singaporean" theory, I don't feel enriched. I have been working like a mule and ever fearful about not having enough in the CPF kitty for retirement after paying off the mortgage for that overpriced pigeonhole. Don't mix up peasants, serfs, people earning an honest living with those millionaire papthetic Ministars :,)

This is Uniquely Singapore. Foreigners have it good at our expense. But they can't have their cake and just eat it in front of us. Everyone pay taxes, but why are only male Singaporean coerced by law to rough it out doing fulltime NS and then later as an OR NSman, forcibly made to take up country security duty for their entire lives. Defend who? Defend what? Doesn't make sense when 35% of the population (and growing larger) are those have-it-good foreign guest workers. You yourself have suffered and been branded "persona non grata" so bear a thought for those unable to get out and thrive.

Georgies, unless you can slip in undetected into this Rojak Island and see and hear for yourself firsthand of the situation on the ground, keep your own counsel till you know much much more. I stand by what I said.

Anonymous said...

Why Adrian Gopal doesn't care to convert and take up Singapore citizenship since he had stayed and worked here for so many donkey years?

Simple answers - firstly, he's gets a higher salary working in Singapore, more money than he'll ever get working in Boleh Land. With his salary paid in SGP dollars and being able to spend freely in ringgit in Boleh land, he has the best of both worlds. One example, many Malaysians working in SGP are able to fully pay off their malaysian property loans in as short as 5 years. The calculating ones already own properties in Johore Bahru, live in Johore, spend in Johore and travel in daily just to work.

Secondly, despite the ethnic Indians being heavily marginalized in Malaysia by the sordid and inequitable pro-bumiputras NEP
policies (think Hindraf and their struggles), he's hanging on tightly to his Malaysian passport. That is, he sees value in retaining his Malaysian identity despite knowing full well that he gets a very raw deal being in the ethnic Indian minority in his own homeland. The flip argument is that after weighing the two he still doesn't see better value converting to a Singapore passport and yet he wants to work in Singapore continuing as a PR.

In many countries, immigrants strive to get citizenship status so that can qualify for superior benefits. But obviously Adrian already sees himself with superior benefits when he choose to keep his Malaysian identity and that is true when you see the medical charges he or his children get to pay, the education fees his children pay and so on and on. The charges and fees are not very different from what Singaporean families pay. Most importantly, Adrian doesn't get burden by NS and being disrupted from work being an NSman. Oh and when Malaysia achieves that 2020 Vision or whatever target, he might just pat his butt and balek kampong. He's on the money trail after all.

You see, he's just a GUEST worker after all in Singapore - and a very ungracious guest at that.

I propose that FTs & PRs are made to pay an extra Defence Security Tax - 20% Employer and 20% Employee. Having this tax deducted monthly from their pay cheques will make PRs and FTs realise that the security and defence of the island is heavily dependent on the sweat and sacrifice of all male Singaporeans and if they wanted to feel safe working in Singapore and enjoy the security benefits w/o lifting a finger, they better pay for it and respect the Singaporean males when they get hauled off their ass for NS and NSman duties. Secondly, employers when they pay this tax will become more cautious and discerning in bringing in the real qualified talents and not take in any tom, dick or harry immigrant work just becoz he is cheaper than a local. I hate to see a Singaporean being given short shrift in his own country by unscrupulous penny-pinching employers. The nett Defence Security tax collected can then be used to paid our boys doing fulltime NS a better allowance instead of the pathetic pittance they now get.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
your passion and views are strong and I could detect your intention is good and honorable for your country of birth. However, I do have a question- Singapore's policy of importing FT and guest workers to all intend and purpose was to fill in the short fall during period of labour shortage.FT and guest workers must leave if they loose their job I presume? Regarding giving foreign student scholarship etc. that was a policy SM Lee had put in place a long time ago to increase the gene pool of Paradise Island.He was concern that Island population is too small to provide all the talent the country need. Issues of this nature would benefit greatly if it is allowed to be debated openly. During this economic downturn, many unemployed will experience serious hardship especially those with young family.
I know the government is trying to help but there are limit to that assistence. Nothing could really replace a true job that give one a purpose in life.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
I will not even think of trying to slip into Paradise Island under any circumstance. The world may have shrunk but there are still plenty of places to go.I have no plitical ambition, just simply pleased that I had saved enough for my old age and still have a bit left over to enjoy travelling.Keep up the good work, somebody must try to bring peaceful changes to the Island state. Sadly, without an alternative party on standby to take over, Singies must continue to endure the injustices. Good luck.

Georgies said...

Anonymous,
You should trust MM Lee.Thing change so he was reflecting on the changing circumstances.MM Lee created Paradise Island, so he know what he is talking about.

Nemo said...

Georgies,

You are too remote to fully understand the sordid ramifications of a liberal pro-FT policy that had been hellish to locals.

Not every businessman (aka boss, ceo, manager etc) is a country-loving patriot, passionate and caring for their fellow countrymen. Some decision-makers themselves are foreigners. When it's time to wield the axe, they all turn out to be the cold, unfeeling, sados which they are deep inside. In this economic downturn, Singaporeans are not spared and in some cases are amongst the first to get the chop becoz when it all boils down to the bottom line, slashing costs and downsizing are the brutish tactics. Foreigners are generally willing to work for less. When I said foreigners work for less money, they are actually earning more than what they could get in their own countries. For instance, an engineer from Chengdu (China) may be paid only 3500 RMB over there but in SGP, he is more than willing to accept a salary of S$3000. But this salary is still more than 4 times than what he could earn in China - see the point. He could still remit 3500RMB each month to support a 2nd family comfortably back in Chengdu. Who are the ones who lose out? - the silent trampled-upon Singaporeans.

To fill you in ...

Heartbreak Story #1

I saw 40-something Auntie crying softly at Parkway Parade near the ATM and the water ball. I asked her why, she said she got no job and she applied so many places and only offer was for her to be cleaner. I dont have much money so I gave her $20 but she didn't want. She just kept weeping. She said Isetan at Parkway Parade hired so many Filipina as cashier and salespeople but don't want to hire Singaporeans. I went to see for myself. Yes, it is true, so many Filipinas.

Heartbreak Story #2

There seems to be many ongoing job fairs nowadays. What I have noticed is the number of foreigners (Yes, and that includes PRs, as long as it is not Pink IC) fighting for jobs with the local Singaporeans. You can see the frustration of the Singaporeans, going for the endless interviews but no jobs available for them, men and women with commitments, mortgage to pay, school going kids, aging parents to take care. But when you go to the restaurants, supermarkets, hospital, foodcourts, etc, you see PRCs, Filipinos in those jobs. In fact, I heard on the radio today doing an interview at the job fair being held at Suntec, when one of the interviewees, a Filipino commented that he is prepared to accept a lower pay as he feels that the pay he gets in Singapore, is definitely better that what he is getting back home. If that is not an indication of depression of local wages, I do not know what is.

Following are the truisms seen thru the eyes of most locals.

"Jobs for foreigners, NS for Singaporeans."

"Scholarships for foreign students, study loans for Singaporean students." My government gave out money freely to foreign students. Papa and Mama have to slog like hell to pay my university tuition fees. Why is my government so dumb?

"Pub-hopping and SPGs entertainment for foreign males, RT training for Singapore males."

Harry doesn't know what he's doing. By most consensus, he has already lost the plot big time. The present administration is just clinging on to power by any means - foul or foulest. The original PAP team from 1965 to 1985 (over 20 years) that did good for SGP is long gone.

Make no mistake, the disastrous "Stop at 2" family policy is instrumental in reducing our country gene pool. For over 40 years in totalitarian control, if the administration cant plan ahead and grow the population organically, what they have said are plain hogwash to cover up mistakes.

And if you had followed and read about the recent billion losses incurred by Temasek & GIC (concerning the country hard-earned reserves and CPF monies), the sickening feeling in the pit of the stomach just grows and gnaws at the sanity and conscience of every true-blue Singaporean.

Believe in Paradise Island, it's more like Wayang Paradiso.

Anonymous said...

What a circus this post has been! With all the sympathisers, the FTs, all the venom! It's a wonder any logic gets through. Here's logic talking then. FTs, please don't mask the real issue with talk of piety, dilemma, etc. You come here to make money. You would have come if your pay was halved? You love this place so much? You were willing to dump your parents, your own parents, back in your country, for crying out loud, to make piles and piles of money here. No dilemma then. And now, what? You suddenly found your conscience? A mercenary with a conscience? Is there such a creature? Here's a general rule; mercenaries don't get the same treatment as natives. You do not count on a mercenary's loyalty to you, you bank on his loyalty to the almighty dollar. In a time of war, guess who's the first to run? The native, who has to defend his home and family, or the hired hand? You want respect? That was the first thing you traded in when you turned your back on family for money.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the government's policy of protectionism. When times are good we don't mind farming out our jobs to foreigners. But in unprecedented times as now, we have to as Singaporeans look out for ourselves. No Government in the world will place equal benefits for both citizens and foreigners. Even in the US, (if you followed yesterday's news in CNA) hundred of thousands of Indians IT professions (people from India and not native Indians) will be send back to India as the Obama administration is not planning to renew or extend these skilled green card holders in favor of giving the limited jobs to US citizens and not to foreigners.

As for Adrian Gopal, I would like to make a plea to the public to give him a break, as he has been recently retrenched. However, I don't agree with his statement that he and his wife are above middle income, how much can a network engineer and a teacher make?? (I earned over $100K last year and my wife and I still consider ourselves lower income) What he is living above and beyond his means. And now that tough times have struck there isn't much reserve to dip into. I just heard from an ex-colleague of his still in touch with Adrian that he hasn't found a job since his retrenchment in Feb and is now heavily debt and depression.

My advice to everyone out there is to be humble and to live well within your means. When you say you "own" a property or car, do you out rightly own it (fully paid)? Or do you "owe" a property / vehicle (carry a mortgage and car loan, which means in cases of delinquent payments the bank or loan company has the rights to repossess you collateral, thus the house or car is not really yours). Make sure you don't live from pay-cheque to pay-cheque, make sure you have plenty of margins and savings. So that when tough times strikes like now you can still manage your expenses and survive.

Head hunters now are telling me that the average turn around can be as long as 6 mths to a year. Can your savings last you that long?

Mr. Prudence

Georgies said...

Nemo,
I detected your resentment against guest workers which I felt when I was working in the little Red Dot.
Sadly, the one precious vote that every citizen possessed could not be used to change the situation. I vote with my feet a long time ago after I had discharged my duty but sadly that is not enough. I would suggest you take great care as I had learned through the hard way, that big brother keep a tap on its citizen. If one ever come to deal with officiadom, one may be surprised to learn of nasty thing that one is not fully aware of.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
Your statement "You are too remote to fully understand the sordid ramifications of a liberal pro-FT policy that had been hellish to locals". Maybe, but I did experient that feeling when I was working in Paradise Island. My boss was a Malaysian, the HR manager was also another one.The lab tech was also. Believed me, I was discriminated in my own country and when I vote with my feet, I did had second thought and went back in 1984. This time (1984) I was in better position to evaluate and consider the pro and con having acquired two degrees. It was a 50-50 decision but my future wife decided it for me. She had a chemistry mismatch with my mother and so we pack up and come back to UK. I do keep up with news from Paradise Island and I am in touch with many of my NS friends.
Keep up the good work.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
"Jobs for foreigners, NS for Singaporeans". If this is true, one had to ask the question why is the government doing this to its own citizen. The one that are called upon to lay down their life if the need arises? Are they trying to put down its own citizen so that they are easier to control? with Foreigners, they could be expelled anytime time if they choose to.

Georgies said...

Nemo,
Heartbreak Story - Unintended consequences of importing cheaper labour. Employers will use cheaper labour anytime regardless of the social situation. They are there to make money for themself. May I suggest that such story be sent to the local press to high light the suffering of local? How about meeting local MP? They were elected to help Singaporean. Make good use of them. Use all available means to fix the situation. What you are doing is highly commentable as a concerned citizen.

Anonymous said...

Is there a way for me to downgrade from Spore citizen to PR? I want to be Malaysian citizen and Spore PR too...

I am an engineer. Over the past year, I have been squeezed out of my job by cheaper Chinese, Malaysian and Indian engineers. To them, $2000 is much when they remit back home. To me, I can’t even afford a HDB, as frugal as I try to be, because the foreigners keeps driving home prices up on a daily basis. To add insult to injury, more of the foreign graduates replacing me had their university fees paid by our very own Ministry of Education. These graduates were not only given free college education, they were even given a month allowance of few hundred dollars each. While I had to work part time to support my education in NUS, and I still remain in debt to my student loan. (BITTER LAUGH!!!!).

I spent 2.5 years of my precious youth serving the SAF, during which I lost my first girlfriend during training. These foreigners were given PRs and citizenship in less than 2.5 years and they don’t even need to serve. If war breaks out, I have to protect 1/3 of the population fuilled with these people?? (Assuming they dun run away at the 1st sign of trouble??!!) SAF even sent me a letter threatening to fine me for going overseas without telling them…to attend a funeral of my uncle…(BITTER LAUGH!!!!). Hey, here’s an idea, why don’t I migrate to another country before migrating back. That will save me more time!

I am working in odds jobs now 7 days a week. I am now almost 30 already. Inflation exceed my savings rate, and I find a home, marriage, kids and happy future beyond me. A simple illness or a year of unemployment could wipe me out. Yet the government is wondering why there are less marriages and births….(BITTER LAUGH!!!!)

I bear no love to my country now. My country does not need to be attacked, it has already be invaded and taken over. Thanks PAP!

Anonymous said...

Here's a story about a husband and wife:

Husband: Why are you inviting so many men from outside into our house?

Wife: I need them to pump labor into me and give me money.

Husband: But I work hard to do that too.

Wife: That is no good. We need better seeds from more talented people outside. Yours is not good enough. These outside men are smart graduates, strong construction workers, handsome road sweepers, young and vibrant students. They are better than you.

Husband: I am your faithful husband. I love you, lived with you, protect you, stay with you in times of trouble. Doesn't that count for something? Those men will come and go. Once they see someone better, they will leave you.

Wife: Since some of them will leave eventually, I must invite even more men to our house. I need them. If more men come, maybe, just maybe, if I am lucky, some will stay

Husband: I can fill our house will happy little ones too. Give me a chance.

Wife: You? That will take too long. Even if we have kids, when can they work to give me money. The men from outside are different, they can work and pay me lots and lots of money immediately. When they grow old, they will leave our house and we don't need to even support them. On the other hand, we need to support our little ones when they age and are too old to be productive.

Husband: Trust me. Life will be better. Don't invite these men over. I will work hard, and we can afford a nice room in our house if we save for 8-10 years.

Wife: It is no use. By the time you save up, the room prices would be much much higher. Only the men from outside can afford to pay for rooms in our house...you cannot.

Husband: Do you still love me?

Wife: Stay on if you want. It is better you leave. Go to another house. I don't care. I doubt other houses would even want you. There's the doorbell......HELLO!!! WELCOME !!! PLS COME INSIDE ME!!