tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post7188658472128534726..comments2024-03-01T15:11:54.107+08:00Comments on Little Stories: Psychometrics at WorkGilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comBlogger103125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-29231451876631115542007-03-14T01:04:00.000+08:002007-03-14T01:04:00.000+08:00Hey Mr Wang,It has been a while since I commented ...Hey Mr Wang,<BR/><BR/>It has been a while since I commented on your blog but I've been reading your posts.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for highlighting the usefulness of the Gallup Strengthsfinder. I borrowed the book from the library after reading your blog and I am totally inspired by their 'revolutionary' idea of capitalising on our strengths and managing our weaknesses.<BR/><BR/>I will purchase the StrengthsFinder 2.0 book so that I can take the test online. For anyone else who is interested in purchasing the book, it is selling for $30 at Berkshire Business Books. http://www.berkshirebusinessbooks.com<BR/><BR/>Thanks for helping to change my life, Mr Wang!darrnothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16448642210175970087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-48457733061611531722007-03-11T10:16:00.000+08:002007-03-11T10:16:00.000+08:00Just to add to the above post that human is the on...Just to add to the above post that human is the only being capable of artificial contraption though I very much like to believe the ability to conceptualise it is part of Human Nature. It is also the only species that attires itself for protection and aesthetics. About language again, there are some aboriginal tribes in many countries now that are without their own indigenous written languages. Most have assimilate the cultures of the main (majority)and advanced societyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-83466168259469939482007-03-11T00:09:00.000+08:002007-03-11T00:09:00.000+08:00This naturely(natural)politically interpretation i...This naturely(natural)politically interpretation is not meant to offense anybody. The mother tongue of any species is the natural language a species is born with. The written form of languages is an invention of the humankind> All other species only have natural vocalisation for communications> The worded language is for record of history< memory and knowledge as a whole> Memory of course is also done mentally and most animals seem capable of it> So to be true to nature and fidel to nature< one has to be true to his natural language which in human means the dialect rather than the written languageAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-13315170068319421922007-03-10T09:46:00.000+08:002007-03-10T09:46:00.000+08:00I should add that to see Hokkien or Cantonese as a...I should add that to see Hokkien or Cantonese as another form of 'verbalization' of Chinese is wrong wrong wrong. Think of it this way: every character in the Han script has a corresponding Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean pronunciation and you read aloud the news on 95.8 in Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean but Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean itself is distinct from Mandarin. <BR/><BR/>Modern South Chinese languages (like Hakka, Hokkien and Cantonese) are different from Mandarin and modern Chinese (which itself is based on Mandarin). They are not derivatives of Mandarin but cousins of Mandarin and one another, having evolved separately from Middle Chinese of the Sui and Tang dynasties. They have significantly different grammars and lexis.Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04726805279916950590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-28478266763117501872007-03-10T09:12:00.000+08:002007-03-10T09:12:00.000+08:00Anon, Anon, what is it that truly has your knicker...Anon, Anon, what is it that truly has your knickers in such a bunch? Is it really the issue of language or is there something rather deeper that causes you such anguish? Reading your ever more hysterical reactions to perfectly polite, reasoned, non-confrontational posts, I get the distinct impression that the issue for you has far more to do with shame, loss of face, ethnicity and jingoism; this Chinese-English discourse is but a convenient stalking-horse. Doubtless you'll trot out that tired old strawman argument yet again. Give it a rest. Spice it up with a dash of <I>ad hominem</I> instead. Anyway, let's accommodate this particular demon.<BR/><BR/>To answer your questions "straight in the face" (sic):<BR/><BR/><I>1. Did you love Chinese language when you were in school?</I><BR/>-Nope. Why would I? Mandarin wasn't my mother tongue and was/still is alien, in the same way that English would have been agonisingly difficult for a child from a purely Chinese-oriented home to get its head around. The only facet I liked about it was that in my day we wrote from top to bottom, right to left, which meant that for an incorrigible left-hander, my usually horribly smudged work-books became pleasurably pristine. Not too flippant an answer for you I hope.<BR/><BR/> <I>Did you do well in it?</I><BR/>- Yup. Eventually. And all through the endlessly patient efforts of a dear old crotchetty lady tutor of sainted memory. Doesn't mean I enjoyed the tedious rote-learning, memorising and stroke-play though - some of us just aren't built that way. Thank goodness the old harsh diktat of six-of-the-best, no-pain-no-gain, and ritual mockery of the hapless, has been shown to be counter-productive in some enlightened countries at least.<BR/><BR/><I>2. If no, would you have love it and/or do well in it, if the SAME syllabus (SAME book, SAME composition, SAME writing, SAME reading SAME everything) is now taught pronounced in Cantonese, instead of in Mandarin?</I><BR/>- Kinduva daft, no-brainer sort of question isn't it? Why would I really, really, hate lessons conducted in a language with which I was half-way at ease? Sheer bloodymindedness, perhaps?<BR/><BR/><I>Ans that honestly.</I><BR/>- And why would you presume a less than honest answer?<BR/><BR/><I>Of course it isnt a mandarin vs dialect thing. i am glad you realise it: it is a CHINESE (never mind how it is pronounced) vs ENGLISH thing - i.e. which is our native language? which is a penalty?</I><BR/>- Huh? It isn't a Mandarin vs dialect diatribe so it logically follows that it must be a Chinese vs English thing? Oh well, so be it.<BR/><BR/>If you could tear yourself away from rigidly saluting your chauvinistic flag for a moment, you might find it instructive to pay a modicum of attention to Fox's cogently constructive arguments per lingua franca and Mr. Wang's point about brain hardwiring with advancing age. Irrespective of the precise tipping point, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of folk WILL, pretty darn quickly, come up against a linguistic brick wall. To ignore this is an exercise in futility. Wittering on and on about "in-depth knowledge", "marginalising less adept students", "native speaker standards", "the problem is with English-speaking students" and so forth is, not to put too fine a point upon it, simply facile. Mandarin has been emphasised relentlessly since the 70's and, despite the focus, despite all the educational sticks and carrots, despite all the resources flung at it, has failed to make good its opportunity. How much more time do you need? You cannot possibly claim it has been disadvantaged or hobbled relative to the other official languages. Now, you may point the finger at whoever you choose to blame for this but one incontrovertible fact is crystal clear, it lost the beauty contest in spite of being given every chance to succeed, and the people have ostensibly made their choice. Tough that the ungrateful peasants didn't make the decisions YOU wanted but remember, you might drag a horse to water - but can you then make it drink? If I remind you that the phrase <B>lingua franca</B> means "A common language used by speakers of different languages" and that you do live in a multi-racial nation, and that western popular culture is presently the 500-pound gorilla in the room, then perhaps you'll see why English has hit the front.<BR/><BR/>Whatever your personal views are of "the banana" (your phrase, I prefer 'dinosaur': unreconstructed relic, nasty bite, and all that), the fact remains that he made a massive effort to learn Mandarin when well into adulthood and succeeded, though perhaps not by your nit-pickingly stringent criteria. His error was decreeing that if HE could manage it then every other Chinese Singaporean bloody-well ought to be able to as well - or else. I recall an even earlier similar scenario with Malay as THE national language, and heaven help your career prospects should you fail to measure up. Cue poor middle-aged school-teachers scrambling to attend evening classes in addition to all their other work and family commitments. All water under the bridge, and now it's the turn of English to become flavour of the year. SimpleSandra's point about hype is quite apt: if the economic status quo swings in favour of India over China, how long d'you suppose it would be before Tamil dons the mantle of blushing bride, eh? In other words, sir, the game has moved on and you are still tilting at windmills. Or if the penny hasn't yet dropped, save your ammunition because E N G L I S H__I S__I T. For now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-78146064254114746862007-03-10T06:43:00.000+08:002007-03-10T06:43:00.000+08:00fox,it is more than lingua franca. In Hong Kong, t...<I>fox,<BR/>it is more than lingua franca. In Hong Kong, the lingua franca is English. But the hong kong MOE expects all its students to learn Chinese and penalises those that do not achieve a minimum standard in it. And that was the case even before the return to China in 1997. Why? Because it is the native language of most hong kongers, and that's what every country/region do, when it comes to native language.</I><BR/><BR/>What rubbish. The lingua franca in Hong Kong is cantonese. English was the language of government, law and commerce but the language people used in their daily lives was and still is Cantonese. <BR/><BR/>Mandarin is a recent 20th-century introduction to Singapore. At no time was it the language that most people used in their daily lives. Most people used either Malay or Hokkien. <BR/><BR/><I>But, our MOE should expect all its Chinese students to learn Chinese and penalise those that do not achieve minimum standard in it. Why? Becuase it is the native language of most Chinese Singaporean...</I><BR/><BR/>No, it is not strictly true. Around 45 percent of Primary One kids of Chinese descent speak English at home. The other 50 percent speak Mandarin with roughly 5 percent speaking dialect. <BR/><BR/>To say that English-speaking Chinese Singaporeans are only a small minority is a gross mischaracterization. <BR/><BR/><I>We should have followed Hong Kong's example, and not penalised cohorts after cohorts of chinese-speaking student who failed English at 1st language and who cannot understand what their teachers are teaching in English. Such penalisation is the mother of all of our problem: structural unemployment due to lowly educated middle age worker. Hong Kong does not have such a problem.</I><BR/><BR/>For goodness' sake, Hong Kong did have a problem of structural employment in the 80s. The problem is not so apparent now because they made the switch to a service economy from a manufacturing economy earlier than Singapore did.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, failing English in the HKALE also prevented and still prevents you from attending university in HK. <BR/><BR/>Please lah, have the habit of checking your facts so that I won't have to keep correcting them.<BR/><BR/>Like assuming that Beethoven was a 'native' German.<BR/><BR/>Or that you can fail English at HKALE and still go to University in HK.Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04726805279916950590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-1764917436008688192007-03-10T02:45:00.000+08:002007-03-10T02:45:00.000+08:00I'm studying Japanese now and am reasonably good a...I'm studying Japanese now and am reasonably good at it. Managed to pass JLPT3 at around 80+%. Currently studying for JLPT2 and intend to only stop when I've completely mastered the language.<BR/><BR/>Can't say the same for my Mandarin though. I hated it all throughout my secondary school years and only managed a C6 for O'levels.<BR/><BR/>I suppose the love of a language or the culture related to it helps in its learning.<BR/><BR/>I see MOE now introducing all the other more obscure Asian languages. I wonder how many people will end up truly proficient and what economic purpose it will serve.choanikihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11670019142121103514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-77862849483280341872007-03-10T00:40:00.000+08:002007-03-10T00:40:00.000+08:00to Anon March 9, 2007 9:21 AM,>>It matters. A Fren...to Anon March 9, 2007 9:21 AM,<BR/><BR/>>>It matters. A Frenchman studies French, an Italian woman studies Italian, a Korean boy studies Korean, and so on. It matters to them because it's their language. It doesnt matter to you, because you gave up your own language, and now regard it as a foreign language.<BR/><BR/>I got give up on my own language meh? Fren, I gave up doing trying hard to do something which is hard to excel in and concentrate on my strengths. My mother tongue was never a foreign language. So presumptious. YOu ELite one issit? =P<BR/><BR/>>>><BR/> The white Americans were English and came from Britain. USA gained independence from UK. Do you not know the history? English is their native language. It matters to them, and so they learn and use it. They did not give up on their native language, and they do penalise those who do not do well in it - English.<BR/><BR/>I do know American History. You're confusing lingua franca and native language la. What if Spanish was the lingua franca?(Hypothetical hor, just for kicks) Would the English not "give up" on their language like the other immigrants i wonder? YOu learn Singapore History or not? Singapore uses English because our colonial masters used English.. which is HEY! just like the Americans. Their colonial masters WERE the BRits too right?<BR/><BR/>>>><BR/>Here, your "they" refers to the new immigrants from Spain, Ireland, Italy. When they emigrate to USA, they have no choice but to give up their own language and culture to accomodate the ruling class (from Britain) who get to keep its native language. That's a shame. But you seem to find it a good example to justify a Chinese singaporean voluntarily losing his native language in his own country, even without emigrating. I don't know where your logic lies.<BR/><BR/>Yes its a shame. Hmm Is Singapore China? A Chinese Singaporean did immigrate from China long time ago leh. What do you mean by "without emigrating"? =)<BR/>Anyway, the Irish, Spanish, and the rest do keep their culture. Still having St Pats day, etc. They don't get penalised for not learning and doing well in their mother tongue when English is the lingua franca. Unlike here. My LOGIC isnt about losing your language, it is about the part where you get penalised la. My logic's fine thanks =)<BR/><BR/>>>><BR/> So it is bad and embarrasing and a shame to have people "look at you funny" -- your USA eg showed clearly that native language matters and where possible, people keep their native language (i.e. the ruling class from Britain). It is only when they cannot help it that they gave it up (i.e. the later immigrants from Italy, spain etc). They "cannot help it" because they are emigrating to another country. We are in our own country and we give up on our own native language. That's incomprehensible to people around the world, who feel that the ability to speak native language does matters. And that's why these people "look at you funny".<BR/><BR/>A lot of points here. Much oft repeated. Anyway, Does people look at you funny would in any way affect your life? If I were succesful in what I do because I do well in what I can excel in, it wouldn't matter what people say or how they look at me. You keep saying that it matters, but why? What's the reason other than sentimental? Some tradition? Its who we are? We are Singaporean. Being Singaporean doesn't mean you HAVE to speak Chinese. Singaporeans aren't all Chinese. Some Chinese are Singaporeans.<BR/><BR/>>>> Got period meh?<BR/><BR/> I can always give you a full-stop if you prefer :)<BR/><BR/>Hahah.. Sarcasm leh; too bad for ya.<BR/><BR/>>>><BR/>> People can master a few things at one time; it doesn't have to be their mother tongue you know.<BR/><BR/> Go tell that to the French, German, Korean, and yes, the white americans who were originally from Britain. If they agree with you, they wont have "look at you funny". To repeat: it matters :)<BR/><BR/>I wonder, is Einstein a master of his native German/Jewish? How does it matter?<BR/><BR/>Emigrate to Germany, tell the Germans "dun force me" to study German in school. See whether they say "can" or not? Tell that to koreans, French, Americans too. Ask them "still must study ar?". See how they reply you. The fact is clear: you regard chinese as a foreign language, and not your native language. And that's a shame.<BR/><BR/>hehehe you keep getting confused with lingua franca and native tongue. <BR/><BR/>The fact is NOT VERY CLEAR. I regard Chinese as a foreign language, and not my native language. However its not a shame: I am MALAY.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I used singlish on purpose; doesn't mean I can't write good English. Oh, how funny.<BR/><BR/>> Please hor, The world has many examples for you to see lor.<BR/><BR/> Indeed it does have many examples. And every example show that the ability to speak one's native language matters. I have named German, French, Korean, and used your America examples. What more do you need? :)<BR/><BR/>I need you to understand lingua franca and native language. I need you to cite examples where the lingua franca and native language are different. I need you to understand Singapore isn't part of China. I need you to understand that other races exist.<BR/><BR/>See how lor.<BR/><BR/>Gorblock.<BR/>(thats me; call me by that nick. Not another Anon, confusing leh..)<BR/><BR/>PS: Anon ar, you gahmen P.R. ar?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-2238245558002036852007-03-09T23:10:00.000+08:002007-03-09T23:10:00.000+08:00How does this work? I am Chinese and Singaporean -...How does this work? I am Chinese and Singaporean - I may or may not speak Chinese fluently because my aprents speak only english/dialect/ come from anoterh country where they spoke a different language (Indonesia). I fail Chinese - I am not only less "elite" on my educational records, fail to make it pass the need for a bilingual population (as defined as my MT and English), worry about its effects on my higher education - now I am a cultural traitor/sheltered elitist too.<BR/><BR/>I think I will stick with the PAP and not with Mr. Anonymous. Compared to him, they gentle and understanding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-47009342901590730482007-03-09T16:48:00.000+08:002007-03-09T16:48:00.000+08:00Lillight:Funny anecdote but all too common.This is...Lillight:<BR/><BR/>Funny anecdote but all too common.<BR/><BR/>This is what happens when companies focus too much on making money out of psychological tools.<BR/><BR/>Using poorly-trained HR staff to administer and interpret psychologist tests, instead of professional psychologists. I hope no one was scarred by their results.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As for the furore over language, I just feel we have too much angst over trying to live up to an incredibly high standard i.e. fluent bilingualism.<BR/><BR/>Just take it easy, and don't be too hard on ourselves. Life goes on, doesn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-45851105708428347262007-03-09T14:16:00.000+08:002007-03-09T14:16:00.000+08:00We did the StrengthsFinder thing as an organisatio...We did the StrengthsFinder thing as an organisation and were made to submit our results for HR to process the stats. During the office retreat, HR presented a bar chart of the 34 themes, i.e. how many employees had each theme. The HR director then zoomed in on the theme possesed by the fewest number of employees. The objective being: how to raise the count for that particular theme.<BR/><BR/>It was useless trying to explain to her how this went completely against the whole point of finding strengths. She only got very offended at being questioned, and was obviously not getting it. I gave up. Spent the rest of the retreat reading the book in detail. Love the approach. Gave it to my husband to read and he is very effectively managing his team of engineers by their strengths. My company? Just another futile exercise. But I got to know my themes and I'm already seeing fruits from building up on them. :-)Lillighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04766264117358235028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-7214913321047371992007-03-09T14:04:00.000+08:002007-03-09T14:04:00.000+08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lillighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04766264117358235028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-83813244236995244892007-03-09T14:00:00.000+08:002007-03-09T14:00:00.000+08:00Eh, bodoh. C6 -is- a pass lah. D7 is also a pass.Eh, bodoh. C6 -is- a pass lah. D7 is also a pass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-35728199823223943212007-03-09T13:51:00.000+08:002007-03-09T13:51:00.000+08:00> if a student cannot pass GP, one may well take t...> if a student cannot pass GP, one may well take the view that he doesn't have sufficient proficiency in the English language, to study Law, or History, or Chemistry, or basically any discipline where he has to read a textbook written in English.<BR/><BR/>I disagree. From an educational pt of view, an O-level pass at C6, or a pass in TOEFL (Taking of English as a <I>foreign language</I> would suffice. That's the standard required for admission of foreign students to US and UK universities. France, Germany etc also does not demand foreigners to have a GP level of proficiency in French or German to study in their universities.<BR/><BR/>All these countries have over the years find that such a standard is sufficient for students to do well at their university - i.e. educational pt of view.<BR/><BR/>NUS applies such <I>purely-educational-pt-of-view</I> standard to its foreign applicants too. You are the one who wrote that NUS requires only O-level English for foreigners to be admitted, and you lamented that Singaporeans are being penalised compared to foreigners, remember?<BR/><BR/>I dont think it should take too much "intellection" :) to jump the hurdle to the next step to realise that: <BR/><BR/><B>Singapore's arbitarily high English requirments for university admission is politically motivated, and has nothing to do with educational needs</B>. Politically motivated = to convert native language of people from chinese to english. To deprive young chinese-educated radicals from uni education in the 1970s, 80s etc.<BR/><BR/><BR/>> One key difference between English & Mandarin is that if you're bad in English, no one accuses you of being a cultural traitor, of disrespecting your own heritage or being lazy or anything like that.<BR/><BR/>If you are bad in English, you won't get past O-level in Singapore. You will be called lazy for not passing O-level science, geography, history (in fact every subject) when actually it is because you dont understand much of what your science teacher is mumbling abt in English. You will be labeled stupid and put into normal technical stream, when the truth is that you failed PSLE math and sci because the math/sci teacher is teaching in a language that is not your native language! You end up in ITE or may drop put of school even before O-level. Outside of schools, people laugh at you and call you ah beng, ah lian. No "high-class" girls will want to marry you - ask around, many girls cite the ability to speak good english and to articullate well in it as a turn-on, and broken ah beng type of english as a turn off.<BR/><BR/><B>My point? If you want to talk about sg govt having penalised and held back its most precious human resource, you are barking up the wrong tree if you make Chinese language the scapegoat!</B><BR/><BR/>Not that nobody has been penalised due to Chinese. Yes, there are. But, it's missing the big/real picture, when one focus on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-5357106431638756292007-03-09T13:29:00.000+08:002007-03-09T13:29:00.000+08:00fox, it is more than lingua franca. In Hong Kong, ...fox, <BR/>it is more than lingua franca. <B>In Hong Kong, the lingua franca is English. But the hong kong MOE expects all its students to learn Chinese and penalises those that do not achieve a minimum standard in it</B>. And that was the case even before the return to China in 1997. Why? Because it is the native language of most hong kongers, and that's what every country/region do, when it comes to native language.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, in Singapore, our lingua franca is English. But, our MOE <B>should</B> expect all its Chinese students to learn Chinese and penalise those that do not achieve minimum standard in it. Why? Becuase it is the native language of most Chinese Singaporean...<BR/><BR/><BR/>I said "should". Why? You read my comment at March 8, 2007 8:10 PM. <BR/><BR/>Mr. Wang's post, apart from psychology, is abt us not penalising citizens. We should have followed Hong Kong's example, and not penalised cohorts after cohorts of chinese-speaking student who failed English at 1st language and who cannot understand what their teachers are teaching in English. Such penalisation is <B>the mother of all of our problem: structural unemployment due to lowly educated middle age worker</B>. Hong Kong does not have such a problem.<BR/><BR/>In contrast, harping on how people have been penalised/traumatised by Chinese, is literally making mountain out of mole hole. <B>Go read the statistics to get a perspective of which problem is larger</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-54458299615377959612007-03-09T13:27:00.000+08:002007-03-09T13:27:00.000+08:00Just to be clear, I think that English can be very...Just to be clear, I think that English can be very difficult for some Singaporeans too. <BR/><BR/>For example, if they grew up in an environment where family members mostly spoke some other language/dialect, eg Cantonese or Teochew.<BR/><BR/>So yes, they would be similarly disadvantaged in English, as would be predominantly English-speaking Singaporeans are disadvantaged in Mandarin.<BR/><BR/>IMO, there is however a stronger basis for, say, insisting that a student pass GP, before he can enter a local university, than for insisting that he pass 2nd Language.<BR/><BR/>The reason is that undergrad courses in Singapore are taught in English. For example, if a student cannot pass GP, one may well take the view that he doesn't have sufficient proficiency in the English language, to study Law, or History, or Chemistry, or basically any discipline where he has to read a textbook written in English. <BR/><BR/>(If he wants to enter NUS to study Chinese Literature, then that's a different story).<BR/><BR/>One key difference between English & Mandarin is that if you're bad in English, no one accuses you of being a cultural traitor, of disrespecting your own heritage or being lazy or anything like that. <BR/><BR/>But if you're bad in Mandarin, instantly you will attract that kind of flak. <BR/><BR/>I think that's what really turns off a lot of people (I mean people who are victims of that kind of flak).Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-907527740566652832007-03-09T13:13:00.000+08:002007-03-09T13:13:00.000+08:00To all that are arguing about which is whose mothe...To all that are arguing about which is whose mother tongue.<BR/><BR/>From the looks of things, all of us SHOULD BE penalised for not being able to communicate clearly using animal sounds because a few thousand years ago our ancestors communicated in that fashion.<BR/><BR/>Piss fight and off topic. Please just agree to disagree and move on. Remember ultimately it is a choice. All choices come with a result/consequence. Be ready to deal with it.Meng Chonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07041318597462076922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-63876848985104273332007-03-09T13:01:00.000+08:002007-03-09T13:01:00.000+08:00Jimmy,> We are all scarred by the insane system, b...Jimmy,<BR/>> We are all scarred by the insane system, but let's be glad the nightmare is over, and pledge not to let it happen to our children again, ever.<BR/><BR/>Can you pray tell us what exactly is this unique part abt our chinese learning system that is not found in our other subjects (eg. English) learning system that makes it "insane"?<BR/><BR/>I ask, 'cos I went through the system without finding it any more or less insane compared to English, Math, Physics. I would like to think that the insanity comes from the students themselves treating their native language as foreign langauge, rather than from the system itself. But I will reserve my judgement till you tell me more abt the uniquely "insane" part of our Chinese learning system.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, you wrote:<BR/>> Learning Chinese can use a lot more carrot and a lot less stick.<BR/><BR/>I would like to think that this should apply to English, Chemistry, Math.too But you singled out Chinese, as if there is something perculiar to it such that it requires a change in carrot/stick ratio whereas the other subjects need not. <BR/><BR/>i.e. can you tell us how the previous system applied too much stick to Chinese and only chinese, <I>compared</I> (and this is a key word: "compared") to English or Math, and so we must add more carrot to Chinese, but need not do so for other subjects?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-30954049152528072007-03-09T12:45:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:45:00.000+08:00aiyoh all off topic liao ~ lolaiyoh all off topic liao ~ lolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-1411817159390157722007-03-09T12:37:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:37:00.000+08:00Ahhhh, allow me to rephraseIn Germany, German is t...Ahhhh, allow me to rephrase<BR/><BR/><I>In Germany, German is the native language of most people. There is nothing wrong with the german MOE "marginalising" Beethoven if he cannot speak german. And they do, do that - students are expected to pass German. I dont know why you talk about Flemish.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, in Singapore, the chinese lanauge is the native language of most Chinese. There is nothing wrong with singapore's MOE expecting students to pass Chinese, just as Germany...</I><BR/><BR/>as<BR/><BR/>In Germany, German is the <B>lingua franca, the language of education, business and government</B>. There is nothing wrong with the german MOE "marginalising" Beethoven if he cannot speak German. And they do, do that - students are expected to pass German. <BR/><BR/>Similarly, in Singapore, the <B>English</B> language of <B>Singaporeans</B> is the <B>lingua franca, the language of education, business and government</B>, not Chinese. There is nothing wrong with singapore's MOE expecting students to pass English, just as Germany...<BR/><BR/>----------------------------------<BR/><BR/>Where does Chinese come into the picture? English is the lingua franca in Singapore, never Chinese. People are expected to speak and write German in Germany because it is the working language there, not because of some ethnic loyalty idea.Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04726805279916950590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-18618519040303921212007-03-09T12:30:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:30:00.000+08:00fox: Why should Chinese Singaporeans be penalized ...<I>fox: Why should Chinese Singaporeans be penalized for not being able to speak/write Chinese if Manchurian Singaporeans cannot speak/write Manchurians?</I><BR/><BR/>To borrow your example, I ask you back: "Why should the Prince of Wales be penalized for not being able to speak/write English, if Greek Briton cannot speak/write Greek?"<BR/><BR/>If you can answer the above, you can answer your own question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-27024958137001423492007-03-09T12:28:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:28:00.000+08:00fox: Beethoven's grandfather is Flemish. According...<I>fox: Beethoven's grandfather is Flemish. According to your logic, he is expected to know Flemish.</I><BR/><BR/>That't not my logic. I wrote two paragraph, you quoted only one and twisted it. For clarity, I reproduce the two paragraph here again:<BR/><BR/><I>In Germany, German is the native language of most people. There is nothing wrong with the german MOE "marginalising" Beethoven if he cannot speak german. And they do, do that - students are expected to pass German. I dont know why you talk about Flemish.<BR/><BR/><B>Similarly</B>, in Singapore, the chinese lanauge is the native language of most Chinese. There is nothing wrong with singapore's MOE expecting students to pass Chinese, just as Germany...</I><BR/><BR/>Putting the 2 para together, you can see that my logic does not involve what you put in my mouth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-46009056464964670732007-03-09T12:22:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:22:00.000+08:00fox, but of course I can "see how that is the case...fox, but of course I can "see how that is the case". Wasnt it I - and not you - the one who wrote: <BR/><BR/><I>"they (the chinese-to-english kids) force themselve to eat and sleep and live the language day in day out because they know their future depends on it. I do not think the same can be said of students trying to learn chinese. Going for tuition is not the same as living in the language. They dont live in the language, not to the extent the former do."</I><BR/><BR/>Arent you regurgitating what i already pointed out? :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-30113142666239067002007-03-09T12:21:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:21:00.000+08:00In Germany, German is the native language of most ...<I>In Germany, German is the native language of most people. There is nothing wrong with the german MOE "marginalising" Beethoven if he cannot speak german. And they do, do that - students are expected to pass German. I dont know why you talk about Flemish.</I><BR/><BR/>Beethoven's grandfather is Flemish. <BR/><BR/>According to your logic, he is expected to know Flemish. If the German MOE had applied that logic, his education would have been stopped at high school because he cannot speak/write a word of Flemish, never mind that Flemish is not used in Germany. <BR/><BR/><I><BR/>Does Singapore penalise you for not being to speak your "native" manchurian tongue, despite your father being born in manchu? No, Singapore does not, because in Singapore, Chinese i the native language of most Chinese Singaporean.</I><BR/><BR/>Why should Chinese Singaporeans be penalized for not being able to speak/write Chinese if Manchurian Singaporeans cannot speak/write Manchurians?Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04726805279916950590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-37361568254374161272007-03-09T12:19:00.000+08:002007-03-09T12:19:00.000+08:00fox: it's no big deal that there are Chinese Singa...<I>fox: it's no big deal that there are Chinese Singaporeans around who dislike learning Chinese.</I><BR/><BR/>I read abt those English monolingual Singaporean writing to straits times complaining and complaining non-stop year after year about the "atrocious" and "delporable" standard of English among our youngs. Why?<BR/><BR/>It is human nature that we are concern abt the standard of <I>our</I> language in our society. It affects whether we have quality play and drama to watch, whether there will be a market for books written in our lanauge, the standard of tv programme produced in our language, newscaster's standard etc.<BR/><BR/>i think it is a big deal, except that my language of concern is diff from those of the vocal minority hogging the Straits Times forum page :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com