ST Nov 3, 2007
Chinese least open to mixed marriage
Survey finds that race matters more in marriage, less in public sphere
By Jeremy Au Yong
MIXED-race couples may be an increasingly common sight in Singapore, but a new survey shows many are still firmly against it.
According to a study on race and religious relations released yesterday, such marriages continued to be the stickiest point for each racial group.
While nearly everyone was fine with having someone of a different race as their teacher, doctor, boss, co-worker or employee, those willing to marry outside their race were a minority.
And it was the Chinese, according to the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies survey, that were the least open to the idea.
Only 31 per cent, or fewer than one in three, said they would marry a Malay or an Indian. Also, about a quarter would mind their siblings having a Malay or Indian spouse.
Oh, look. The percentage of Chinese who would not marry a Malay or an Indian is almost exactly the same percentage of Singaporeans who do not approve of homosexuality (according to this NTU survey).
Well, interracial couples in Singapore have it lucky. The Chinese may frown on them, just as much as the general public frowns on homosexuals. But unlike the case of the homosexuals, at least no one is arguing that based on the survey, interracial marriage should be criminalised and all the relevant husbands and wives should be thrown in jail.
Duh. Sometimes the world really tires me. So much low-IQ prejudice, everywhere I look.
90 comments:
Mr Wang,i'm James Michael from London,England,currently pursuing a degree in IT & Finance under LSE,i'm Anglo-Indian,born in India,raised in Spore,have been a Singapore citizen for the past 28yrs,race & religion will always be a big bruhaha in Spore,in london,things are different cos its really a metropolis!Inter-racial marriages are common,no one frowns upon them,well,some of my relatives are either white,moslem,filipino or hispanic,all under one happy family,guess Spore has a long way to go!!!Really long way to go!Cheers! - James Michael
Come on Mr Wang, I expect better from an ex-deputy public prosecutor.
Homosexuality is an ethical issue. Those who think it is an acceptable practice, and those who think it is either ethically or spiritually wrong.
Inter-racial marriage is a preference. Nothing ethical or spiritual about it. In fact, it is spiritually wrong to be against one.
I know you are concerned over this issue of homosexuality, but this argument you just brought up is silly.
And better not to use the degoratory description 'low IQ' for those against homosexuality. IQ has nothing to do with it, and you know it.
The prominent thing that dawns on me on inter-racial marriage is that to marry a muslim. The non muslim has to convert to a muslim in order to get registered in the muslim's ROM.
So far the only case I know is this Indian friend that I got to know when I was in poly, her mom's a muslim but dad's a hindu who did not wish to convert.
According to her they didn't register their marriage.
So far I have not come across a muslim who convert to the faith of the spouse to get married.
I always believe that religion is a personal choice and using the law and marriage as a mean to make one convert seems to suggest its genuine tolerance towards other faiths.
Hi,
That's a survey.
Why not post actual details of interrace-marriages from the ROM?
You are bad (read funny :-) but the point you made was GOOD -- double standards?
As always, I enjoy reading your blog.
Thanks
John:
You may think my point is silly. I do not.
If you boil down the issues to their core elements, they are very similar.
I suggest you refrain from comments like "it is spiritually wrong to be against marriage". Next moment, you will start attracting other readers' comments like, 'I am not a Christian/Muslim/____, but my girlfriend was. Why did her parents object to us getting married, just because of that? is it spiritually right of them to do this" etc.
And in case you think my point about interracial marriages being criminalised was entirely facetious, let me assure you that it is not.
Various countries have had their anti-miscegenation laws (prohibiting interracial marriage and in some cases, interracial sex) at various times in history. These include Germany, South Africa and the USA.
Alabama and South Carolina in fact ended up abolishing their anti-miscegenation laws only as late as 1998 and 2000.
So the bigots had their heyday with interracial couples too, using the law to discriminate against them in the way that the law, in different times in different countries, has been used to discriminate against women ... blacks ... aborigines ... gays ... religious minorities ... colonised people .... Native Americans etc etc
Since the majority are against inter-racial marriages let's just criminalise it then.
Here's a comic you might want to use:
http://www.terrapintables.com/archives/tomtomorrowmarriage.giv.gif
I am sure you can find others illustrating the same point.
Hi there John, now if I were to say that inter-racial marriages are either ethically or spiritually wrong, would you be able to fault me for that?
Here another:
http://www.duvekot.ca/eliane/archives/gay_marriage.jpg
and one that is similar in delivery as the left-handedness one you like:
http://www.u-blog.net/cathogay/img/gay_marriage_civil_rights_cartoon.gif
John said...Homosexuality is an ethical issue. Those who think it is an acceptable practice, and those who think it is either ethically or spiritually wrong.
Inter-racial marriage is a preference. Nothing ethical or spiritual about it. In fact, it is spiritually wrong to be against one.
I know you are concerned over this issue of homosexuality, but this argument you just brought up is silly.
Dear John,
Please read the following for your edification and education.
Racists and homophobes are really no different. Hate is hate and you can justify it under the banner of religion, bigotry and ignorance.
You must have been asleep during history lessons or probably busy deeply mired in your bible studies that day...
In the middle of a night in 1958, the sheriff came and arrested the couple. They were convicted but given a suspended sentence.
In that year, only 4% of their fellow countrymen approved of their kind of relationship. There was extensive moral disapproval and a huge consensus behind the law.
Nine years later, their case reached the US Supreme Court, which overturned the statute under which they had been convicted.
“Activist judges perverting the will of the people,” declared opponents of the verdict.
“Against natural law!” screamed others. “Contrary to the will of God!”
In 1948, the state government of California argued before its own Supreme Court in Perez vs Sharp, that interracial marriages produced weak progeny, who themselves would be sterile and thus unable to procreate further. Furthermore, such marriages promoted social and racial conflict.
This echoed the view of US Senator John F Miller from California, who said in 1878, “Were the Chinese to amalgamate at all with our people… the result of that amalgamation would be… a mongrel of the most detestable that has ever afflicted the earth.”
Read the FULL text at Yawning Bread.
One big happy family in England where everyone lives in peace, acceptance and happiness?
Didn't the 3 morons who bullied the trishaw rider come from enlightened England?
Or the moron who peed on a dying woman while shouting "This is youtube material."
Or the police who shot a brazilian because he happens to have dark skin.
Singapore may have alot to improve on but God us all if we ever become like England one day.
Eh, escuse mee, I remember that there was a time where differing beliefs and pratices clashed along racial lines, with social polarisation. I think we got over that through mutual respect.
Mixed marriages are just different beliefs and practices, I think its ok too. The gay issue does make things somewhat uncomfortable, but I think only those low-IQ or indoctrinated types will see it as inherently unethical.
For the record, I'm a Christian. And while the Bible tells us not to be homos, I don't think it tells us to "burn witches at the stake" either -get my drift?
Just want to say a few things here.
The bible is against homosexuality but not against inter racial marriages. It does, however, encourage marrying in the faith, though not necc race.
So for christians, homosexuality is an ethical issue while inter racial marriages is not. Just an issue of personal preference. Marrying out of the religion is kinda grey area here, though. Anyway the blog is not about inter religious marriages.
There will always be extremists who see inter racial marriages as an ethical issue and even treat it like how they would treat homosexuality. These people are wrong and should not be lumped together with christianity as a whole.
Admittedly, Christianity is losing it's moral authority because too few people are willing to stand up for what the bible stands for and those who do, tend to be extremists.
Mr Wang, I do not think you have to worry about Singapore going the way of America in this sense because we are secular. You can say America is secular also but historically, America's forefathers were pilgrims fleeing religious persecution or trying to find new ground to do mission work and thus, there is a stronger religious background. Our forefathers were generally immigrants who left their home just to make more money so our history tend to be more in terms of business.
We do follow British law, yes and some of these laws might seem out of date like 377A but in my other posts, I did say why I feel there law should not be repealed. As for Singapore following American trends or any western trends , it tend to be on fashion or money or material things and rarely as a nation, on religous issues.
Philip
Mr Wang,as you can see from these comments,i've always learnt a very important lesson,mankind discriminates under any circumstances,history will keep repeating itself,there will be bigots,a few bad apples,but we can't prevent polarization or prejudices from taking place!I've had my fair share of racist taunts,very bad experiences not only from Chinese Singaporeans but from my own race(Indians) as well,i'm referring to the caste system which was brought about from India to Spore,it still exists,what we can hope to achieve is at least where people from different races are totally colour-blind!The only way is to educate people,tear down walls of ignorance,but hey,once again,it takes 2 to tango!Unless one is well-travelled,have had different experiences with various cultures,it will always be a comfort zone for anyone,me included as well!Birds of a feather flock together,its everywhere,its evident & inevitable,what the individual can do is see,learn,observe,i'm not asking the person to fit in,what the person can do is adapt,be flexible as a sponge,learn as much as they can,self-development is very important for any individual,only passionate people who's passionate about changing the world can really change the world,condemnation & criticising one another will not help,that's what i've learnt here in England!Its not a perfect country but hey,the people here are far more friendly,pro-gay(i'm not kidding),accept Asian immigrants with open arms,i've seen it for myself,they only have problems against Muslims(after 2005 London bombings),then again,that has brought a greater awareness among its different races,more accepting & understanding one another!My two cents worth of personal experience! - James Micheal
iago:
or the record, I'm a Christian. And while the Bible tells us not to be homos, I don't think it tells us to "burn witches at the stake" either -get my drift?
-------------------
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones" (Leviticus 20:27).
There you go... totally debunked. Happy?
I think Mr Wang has made another strong point in favour of decriminalising homosexuality.
I just want to point out an important distinction.
There is a difference between those who accept interracial marriages when preseted with interracial couples and those who would not marry someone else from another race.
From personal experience, I feel that the percentage of Singaporeans who would accept an interracial couple would be higher than 25%.
The survey presents a theoretical question and participants are asked to answer theoretically. They are expressing their preference.
If the participants actually fell in love with a member of another race, however, I'm sure many would change their views. Or when presented with a real life mixed couple, would be forced to interact with them or in the least accept their presence.
In my case, when I married my wife, from another race, her parents were initially against it, but respected her wishes. After several years, they now have no problem with our marriage as they can see that their preconceived notions were wrong.
To anonymous:
Erm, wrong testament. As I recall, vengeace is God's and God's alone. Going by the Christian yardstick, I think my case stands. There's also the bit about not being "yoked" in marriage to an unbeliever, but then I don't think its up to us to create a law against it right?
Whatever religion, whatever doctrine, its inherent 'rightness' is beyond proving. We can either choose peaceful coexistence or ideological imperialism. To each his own, or antagonism to all - thats the dilemma of the issue.
If we coolly take a side-step not getting emotionally enthralled into the issue, I think anyone will be able to see what I mean.
To say people are prejudiced because of low IQ is terribly offensive.
my mother and many of her generation have these prejudices. are they wrong? i think so but it has nothing to do with IQ.
you say you are tired of the world. but you probably have a comfortable, well-paid job and time to write (which i appreciate a lot). my parents were tired simply because they worked from dawn to dusk. they had no time to think about other things except how to put more food on the table, no time to read, no ability to travel and see places. they lived tired and fearful lives.
Prejudiced? Yes. Wrong? Probably. Low IQ? You have to be kidding.
To anonymoue who replied to iago onNovember 4, 2007 10:34 AM
iago:
or the record, I'm a Christian. And while the Bible tells us not to be homos, I don't think it tells us to "burn witches at the stake" either -get my drift?
-------------------
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones" (Leviticus 20:27).
There you go... totally debunked. Happy?
You do not get the message from iago. If a person is really a witch, I am also all for burning and stoning them. All Christians should also be for that. The issue is that in Salem and whatever place when there were burnings of witches, these people were suspected of witchcraft based on the flimsiest of evidence. That is a different story.
It is an issue of prejudice and misguided practice of biblical teachings. It is not a teaching on bible extremism.
Anyway, what i think iago is trying to say is that while the bible says not to be a homo, a homo is an abomination, it does not teach to burn all homos at the stake. Laws might have been for the Israelites but that was old testament time and Christians in the new testament time. This does not make old testament irrelevant but then again, not in the scope of this blog.
Philip
Mr Wang, I have been reading your blog recently and I have to say that you give intelligent suggestions, especially with regards to education.
Keep it up Sir! I'll continue to read your posts. (=
I'm suggesting that explanation for such statistics is simply that, as the majority the Chinese have more 'choice' and thus have a greater chance to marry within their race, and thus more able to afford to 'frown' upon mixed-race marriages. This is just common sense really.
Yes, it's tiresome. But I'll echo James Michael and Isaiah here: non-provincialism and/or rationality are not equally accessible to everyone. You can't blame them entirely, for people aren't entirely responsible for themselves.
I think we need a new law to protect people with low IQ.
If a person is really a witch, I am also all for burning and stoning them. All Christians should also be for that.
You fit right in with the Talibans and other Christian nutjobs in the ilk of Rev Phelps.
Anyway, what i think iago is trying to say is that while the bible says not to be a homo, a homo is an abomination, it does not teach to burn all homos at the stake.
The half-dozen biblical references to homosexuality do not reflect what we understand today about loving relationships and human sexuality. In the same way that you don't commit a grave sin when you grow two different crops in the same field or wear a material made from different fabrics, love between heterosexual and homosexual people is not s sin.
The bible also says the devil causes illness and sickness and other such ignorant nonsense.
We have outgrown and gone beyond such superstitious and stupid beliefs yet Christians STILL cite their magic book as infallible and the inerrant word of god when they willy nilly interpret their bronze-age magic book to justify their prejudiced beliefs.
Believe in your Juju man and eat cow-dung or whatever on certain days as prescribed by your magic book but please keep your superstitious beliefs and barbaric morality of burning witches (too funny) or persecuting homosexuals out of the public sphere.
"You do not get the message from iago. If a person is really a witch, I am also all for burning and stoning them. All Christians should also be for that. The issue is that in Salem and whatever place when there were burnings of witches, these people were suspected of witchcraft based on the flimsiest of evidence. That is a different story."
Wow... advocating murder for people who do not conform to your religious likes... thats a "high IQ" thing for sure.. bet the Taliban knows the process well.
Oh wait.. the bible says alot of things about non-belivers too... lets go kill them all.. dont be selective in quoting it.
Mr Wang,
the Malay figure is flawed.
All who marry Malays MUST convert to Islam. So there is a greater resistance by the Chinese in marrying Malays as opposed to the Indians.
Malays will be more receptive to marrying outside their race, because they have minimum cultural and religious adjustments to make.
The question to ask, is, are the Malays receptive to marrying outside their race, IF they must convert to their spouse's religion.
This will give us the actual picture of marriage attitudes instead of saying Chinese are more snobbish.
Mr Wang, you wrote 'I suggest you refrain from comments like "it is spiritually wrong to be against marriage". Next moment, you will start attracting other readers' comments like, 'I am not a Christian/Muslim/____, but my girlfriend was. Why did her parents object to us getting married, just because of that? is it spiritually right of them to do this" etc.'
I am saying it is spiritually wrong to be against inter-racial marriage, NOT marriage.
It was you who brought up this issue of inter-racial marriage and comparing it to homosexuality. I am trying to explain to you that they are very two different issues and hence should not be used for comparison.
And in a later post, you wrote that countries have criminalised inter-racial marriage in the past. Sure, but Christianity and Islam, in their correct forms, never had.
I am sure nothing in the Holy Bible states that inter-racial marriage is wrong.
You cannot compare homosexuality with inter-racial marriage.
Philip, the statements
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones" (Leviticus 20:27).
were written for the state that the Jews just established in the Holy Land after the Exodus.
With the coming of the Lord Jesus, these laws and the punishments for their transgressions have been superseded and are not applicable for the Elect.
They can still be used as a reference to what is strong disapproved by God, though.
er jb,
i think there is some misunderstanding here
You fit right in with the Talibans and other Christian nutjobs in the ilk of Rev Phelps.
I never said we as christians should be extremists. We see someone acting like a witch or look like a witch and then we burn them. I am talking about actual witches.
Not sure about the rev u are saying here but as for the taliban, they tend to call anyone who disagree with them "infidels" or "of satan". I do not advocate that.
The bible also says the devil causes illness and sickness and other such ignorant nonsense.
My opinion is that the devil does cause illness and sickness when he poseesses you or something. Not every illness can be pointed to him. If the devil posseses you, you can be mentally sick and all that, or perhaps writhe like a serpent as seen recently?
With the coming of the Lord Jesus, these laws and the punishments for their transgressions have been superseded and are not applicable for the Elect.
They can still be used as a reference to what is strong disapproved by God, though.
Here I disagree. I still think burn the witches. As I say again, real witches. Not Harry Potter (that is fiction) or ppl who look or act like one but actual ones.
The New Testament is more about love and there were sorcerers who did repent. For those who do not? Anyway, it is a moot point cos it is unlikely there are true witches in Singapore.
The point I am driving here is that there is still a place for extreme punishments but we as humans tend to look at things too extremely. If I say I will burn the witches, you assume that I approve of burning people who look, act, sound like witches or portray themselves as such. I am talking about real witches who cast actual spells or as legend goes, eats children, boils potions in cauldrons and such. Or if I say the devil does cause mental illness, you assume that I say that mental illness is caused by the devil.
Mental illnesses do have biological causes. And they are cured by drugs and therapy. This does not mean that the devil does not cause them. It is just that it is rare nowadays, just as real witches are rare these days.
One last point here befroe I end of Mr Wang will kill me for writing so long. What about Bomohs? Or mediums? Are they witches? Why not just kill them all? I reserve judgement here because some are fakes, and some I really do not know. Anyway, possession by a spirit does not make one a witch. And since I canot come up and tell you medium A is a fake, medium B is really the real stuff, I will not speak of burning them. Again, burn only real witches and of course, one you really recognise and not one you think it is based on "gut feeling".
Philip
Cmon Bro.
The survey is definetly flawed. Go do a survey on the number of Chinese girls willing to marry Ang Mohs. I am sure the precentage is high.
Also do not confuse between inter-racial and inter-religious. A Indian Christian may be more willing to marry A Chinese Christian then a non-Christian. A person with the same religion are usually more willing to marry a person of the same religion and therefore you will get Malays marrying Indian who are Muslim.
But in the end what is the purpose of the survey! So what if someone is willing or not willing to marry outside his race.
Also do not see the connection between this survey and the survey against or for Homos.
As mentioned before this argument will never end. Just take the path that suit you and walk down that path.
Anyway, one more statement. Why am I more against witches as compared to homosexuals even though I am a fundamentalist?
Witches set themselves as enemies of God by calling upon the powers of the supernatural. Again, real witches. They are the real devils. As for Taliban going round calling people of "satan" and that they are called by "God to slay infidels"", dun quote me but to me , it is all rhetoric. Words to say to get support. Witches call upon actual dark powers.
I still believe homosexuals choose to be so BUT BECAUSE OF GENERTIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS FOR SOME, I tend to view this as a "grey area".
Philip
I'm married to a french and living in France now. My sister has an indian boyfriend. My mom was at first against our choices. It is not because of IQ problem. She is a smart woman. 1) She was afraid that she could not communicate with our partners. she speaks mainly chinese.
2) She did not understand western/indian cultures.
3) She did not want me to leave Singapore which sadly I did due to unforeseen circumstances.
4) Of course, she could not understand why with so many chinese men around, we ended up with the minorities races in Sg.
The survey did not explain in details the reasons. My mom's opinion has changed greatly since she visited me twice in france. Even her friends are envious of her having the chance to "see the world". I would think that only our older generation frown on mixed-race marriages.
Gentlemen,after reading all yr blogs,guess there's something i should comment about,i have been a christian for the past 6yrs,7mths to be exact,in short,i'm a convert from being a staunch hindu to a devout Christian,no one coerced me into this!It was a decision that i made back in 2001,where my life was in doldrums,all these comments made about inter-racial marriages with religion involved,as far as i'm concerned,one man's meat is another man's posion,what seems acceptable for some people,may not seem appropiate for others,we all have been given the freewill to chose to live our lives,we reap what we sow,if we think & act in a responsible,logical,rational & sensible manner,now that is what i call gung ho,if not,we have to face the consequences of our actions,for each & everyone of us here who has had made interesting,thought-provoking comments,my question to each & everyone(me included as well),why cant't we all agree or disagree in civil fashion,cause we have to remember that for every action,there is a reaction,Mr Wang is kind enough to air our thoughts,i don't have to agree to all opinions,but what i can do is figure out why the person feels that way,try to place myself in that person's shoes,i may not be able to understand why certain comments were made,but what i can do is gauge the person's thoughts,the reason why i mentioned this,i used to be a youth volunteer,i've met thousands of youths(not kidding) from all walks of life,i keep asking myself these questions - If i can't be a stable
& secured person,find my own identity,how on earth am i supposed to identify with others?What makes me tick?Am i unique?Am i person who's judgemental?A hypocrite?Am i that perfect?The lesson all of us can learn here - All of us have our own personal demons to conquer!Let peace & gdwill be towards all of mankind!God loves,man kills!God help us all!Amen!Hallejuah!Let's move on.....shall we fellow homosapiens? - James Michael of London,England!
I am beginning to wonder if anyone remembered that the Nazis also threw into the Gas chambers Homosexuals, and whether these so called Christians would go as far as condone their actions.
John said:"
With the coming of the Lord Jesus, these laws and the punishments for their transgressions have been superseded and are not applicable for the Elect.
They can still be used as a reference to what is strong disapproved by God, though."
Sir, the Lord Jesus, Son of God, said to "Love your neighboour". Are you advocating that we override that which is akin to blasphemy?
Mr Wang, I notice that I have mistyped or forgot t ocontinue my statement. Amended as follows:
All who marry Malays MUST convert to Islam. So there is a greater resistance by the Chinese in marrying Malays as opposed to the Indians, who have a larger Muslim population as opposed to the Chinese.
"Sir, the Lord Jesus, Son of God, said to "Love your neighboour". Are you advocating that we override that which is akin to blasphemy?"
Yes Love your neighbour so much that you must help him against sinning.
Read the Bible and do not quote selected verses to suit your purpose
Anon Philip said - I never said we as christians should be extremists.
No you clearly didn't. *I* called you a religious looney and lumped you together with the other religious nutjobs.
We see someone acting like a witch or look like a witch and then we burn them. I am talking about actual witches.
So how can you tell which witch is the real witch and which witch is really fake. Is there a surefire way to tell? A broom in her house perhaps? A pointed black hat? Warts on her face? She does occasionally say things like "Double, double toil and trouble; fire burn and cauldron bubble." Is that a good enough indicator?
Or maybe you should just burn them all and like good Christians under Pope Innocent III of yore in AD 1210, who before butchering the heretical Cathars in southern France, some 100,000 plus, men, women and children, invoked, "Neca eos omnes. Deus suous agnoset."
"Kill them all. God will know his own"
I need your advice. I think my mother-in-law is a real witch. Should I just burn her or would you recommend that I first give her a good whack in the head with a baseball bat? I don't want be charged for witch cruelty. It would be more merciful that way.
Do I need to wear a cross for protection or chant the "Our father" prayer?
What if she really isn't a witch? Will I go to hell?
Can you enlighten?
"Hide and Seeking said...
John said:"
With the coming of the Lord Jesus, these laws and the punishments for their transgressions have been superseded and are not applicable for the Elect.
They can still be used as a reference to what is strong disapproved by God, though."
Sir, the Lord Jesus, Son of God, said to "Love your neighboour". Are you advocating that we override that which is akin to blasphemy?"
Huh? What?
Sorry hide and seeking, the answer to your question was so obvious to me that I did not catch it initially.
The injunction 'love thy neighbour' is a commandment to Christians to care for our fellow men, even if they are sinners. We are to help them as best as we could, materially and also spiritually.
This is not a commandment to condone and allow sins though. E.g. if our friend is an alcoholic, we can still care for that person, but we should and must advise him that his alcoholism is wrong.
Similarly, if a friend or relative commits sins in the eyes of the Lord, it is our duty to tell that person. But we do not have the right to punish that person as prescribed in the Books of the Old Testament, which were written in the context of the ancient state of Israel.
Hope this makes things clear.
To anonymous who wrote
'Dear John,
Please read the following for your edification and education.
Racists and homophobes are really no different. Hate is hate and you can justify it under the banner of religion, bigotry and ignorance.
You must have been asleep during history lessons or probably busy deeply mired in your bible studies that day...'
Please, read my post.
I stated clearly that inter-racial marriage is NOT opposed by either Islam or Christianity.
Hence to compare homosexuality and inter-racial marriage is not appropriate.
And, I have good friends who are gays, but who know that I am against homosexuality. I do not condone it, and I would not tell my children or friends that such behaviour is alright. But neither do I pass snide or sarcastic comments to my gay friends.
Thanks (sigh).
Christianity has its fair share of people who, by the power of Jesus, do (or purportedly do) various sorts of "magical" or "supernatural" things. Such as cast out demons; bless houses; heal the sick; invoke the speaking of tongues etc. If you look through the history of Christianity, eg you'll also find plenty of people like Joan of Arc, Saint Francis of Assisi, St. Alphonsus Liguori, Paul of the Cross who reportedly exhibited all sorts of "magical" or "supernatural" powers/experiences (visions; power over wild animals; levitation etc).
However, EVERY other religion & spiritual tradition also has its fair share of people who, by the power of XYZ God or ABC Spirit, who do (or purportedly do) various sorts of "magical" or "supernatural" things. Such as cast out demons; bless houses; heal the sick; invoke speaking in tongues; visions; levitation etc.
So are you going to kill all of them? The bomohs, the holy men, the shamans, the fengshui masters, the Wiccans, the mediums, the tang ki's?
I suppose you might want to start with a couple of mediums in the Chinatown area. They channel spiris quite regularly. You can read about this in Margaret Chan's book.
"I would think that only our older generation frown on mixed-race marriages."
I doubt that. For example, "sarong party girl" is a derogatory term but I don't think it has that kind of vintage. It is a relatively new term coined by a younger generation.
Anyway the survey says what it says. Note that I do not say whether the percentage is high or low; I merely say that it is almost exactly the same percentage as the percentage of Singaporeans who disapprove of homosexuality. And I am merely provoking thought among my readers, along the lines of whether a thing should be criminalised simply the majority disapproves of it; and if so, what is the percentage requried, and if so, why is there a difference between the way we have treated these two things (interracial marriages and homosexuality) which are disapproved by the same proportion. Etc.
I dunno which is scarier:
Christians who still believe in withches, or Christians who are against gays.
"So how can you tell which witch is the real witch and which witch is really fake."
I know how - full cavity inspection.
Hi there
So how can you tell which witch is the real witch and which witch is really fake. Is there a surefire way to tell? Is that a good enough indicator?
I hope you understand why i editted your remarks. Cos too long and basically, I think these words sum up what you are saying.
If you read my other posts, I did write on bomohs and how I am also not going to point at them because I cannot tell true wizards and sorcerers and witches from charlatons and those who are demon possessed. Demon possessed people are not witches.
Or maybe you should just burn them all and like good Christians under Pope Innocent III of yore in AD 1210, who before butchering the heretical Cathars in southern France, some 100,000 plus, men, women and children, invoked, "Neca eos omnes. Deus suous agnoset."
I am not going to contest this because I do not really know what really happened and I AM ASSUMING THAT WHAT YOU WROTE IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. I disapprove of that. Why kill people you are not sure are witches and then say God will know his own? I only advocate killing people who are actually witches.
I think my mother-in-law is a real witch.
I do not know your mother in law but anyway, your usage of the word shows just how easy it is to call someone a witch, forgetting what it really means.
Wow... advocating murder for people who do not conform to your religious likes... thats a "high IQ" thing for sure.. bet the Taliban knows the process well.
Oh wait.. the bible says alot of things about non-belivers too... lets go kill them all.. dont be selective in quoting it.
Ehhh, I did not advocate killing non believers. I did write that why I am against witches is because they are the enemy and they are the enemy because they evoke the powers of dark. So dun say I say ill non believers and those who do not conform to my beliefs. That is why while I believe homosexuality is wrong, I tend to view it as more of a grey area because of other factors like genetic.
Any surefire way to tell who is a real witch? To be honest, I do not know since I have not met one yet. But I believe that you will know one when you meet one as long as you "think logically and rationally and not go down the easy path of labelling just anyone a witch", which is something few, if any can do (because of our inherent biases and prejudices), including Christians.
Philip
Mr Wang, my reply.
First of all, Christians invoke the power of the light. Now, you might say that who am I to say it is of the light and that is of the dark? As a Christian, of cos I support my religion and what I recognise as the "power of the light" might not be as such to you. Hence, our differences. We agree to disagree here.
Secondly, I do not go round calling everything Christians say is good. I am anti charismatic if you must know because I feel that tongue speaking in the charismatic movement is not the same tongue speaking of the Bible. As for healing, I believe Jesus is the Healer and all those who lay hands are just asking for Jesus to heal them with no guarantees of success no matter the faith level since Jesus decides it and not man. Those who claim to be faith healers even in the Christian world, i tend to view it with some skepticism also though I will stop short of calling it the work of the Devil because God does work in mysterious ways and it is a very serious offence to call the work of God the work of the Devil. At least for Christians since we believe in the bible.
Lastly, please note I am not jumping and declaring that anything Christians claim to do are good and of God. In fact, the Bible did say that on the day of judgement, many ppl will tell God they did this and that in God's name and God will say I never knew you.
Probably the most obvious characteristic of a witch was the ability to cast a spell, a "spell" being the word used to signify the means employed to accomplish a magical action. A spell could consist of a set of words, a formula or verse, or a ritual action, or any combination of these[2]. Spells traditionally were cast by many methods, such as by the inscription of runes or sigils on an object to give it magical powers, by the immolation or binding of a wax or clay image (poppet) of a person to affect him or her magically, by the recitation of incantations, by the performance of physical rituals, by the employment of magical herbs as amulets or potions, by gazing at mirrors, swords or other specula (scrying) for purposes of divination, and by many others means[3].
Main characteristic of a witch from wikipedia. Necromancy is hard to prove because it can be simple faking or demonic possession so it is not wise to label anyhow they are witches and they have to be killed. Same for mediums, bomohs and such.
However, EVERY other religion & spiritual tradition also has its fair share of people who, by the power of XYZ God or ABC Spirit, who do (or purportedly do) various sorts of "magical"
Well then, shamans might say Christian priests are witches and vice versa. I cannot argue with that possibility but as a Christian, I give my viewpoint. A shaman might give another view point and so be it. That said, I am not calling shamans witches by default since not having met one shaman myself, I think it is unfair and dangerous to jump and call them witches and kill them all.
Philip
John,
"But we do not have the right to punish that person as prescribed in the Books of the Old Testament, which were written in the context of the ancient state of Israel."
And by what authority, really, do you make this claim? Did God say... "My laws are only for the ancient state of Israel"? Or did Jesus say that? Or was it Paul? Or yourself because you don't like the idea of stoning/burning people to death for menial 'sins'?
"First of all, Christians invoke the power of the light. Now, you might say that who am I to say it is of the light and that is of the dark? As a Christian, of cos I support my religion and what I recognise as the "power of the light" might not be as such to you. Hence, our differences. We agree to disagree here."
I'm sorry, but I find the "agree to disagree" line just a little too pat, when this entire line of discussion stems from your comment that you think witches ought to be killed.
If you think X is a witch, and other people don't think so, you'll "agree to disagree" and proceed to kill X?
Philip,
"Well then, shamans might say Christian priests are witches and vice versa."
So if a shaman thought it through "rationally and logically" and conclude that a Christian priest is a witch, the shaman has the right to kill the Christian priest??
"Main characteristic of a witch from wikipedia."
AHAHAHAHA. You are using wikipedia to decide who should be killed and who shouldn't. How very Christian and intelligent of you.
dear friends,
Pls DO NOT believe whatever Philip is saying. He is mad. He does NOT represent Christianity. Jesus never did and never will advocate for people to be put to death, whether they are witches-by-wikipedia's-definition (OMG!!! this is damn stupid can!) or not. He is a perfect case study of what happens when one takes Religion/beliefs to the extreme. Thank you.
Hi Mr Wang, I have been a reader of your blog for some time and I always been attracted by your interesting posts and suggestions. Some of your posts are so thought-provoking that the comments box evolved into some kind of a forum. IMO, the social-political-economic issues you raise up are the best among your many posts.
Unfortunately, sensitive topics like religion tend to attract many people and opinions. Some of these opinions are very thoughtful, while some are full of prejudiced bigotry. There are definitely some here who quote from ancient books that obviously are not based on logic, universal compassion and common sense.
Therefore, it is pretty sad when your comments box get jammed up with pointless religious debates and preaching, who posts are so long that they crowd out other wiser voices. I think there is no point debating with fundermentalists who will forever think they are right and others are wrong.
Time has proved them wrong again and again, anyway. But fundermentalists never learn from history.
Yuez
Wow.....
To all the witch burning debaters out there, I would like to remind politely to all one simple fact that is not mentioned:
In Singapore, the burning of anyone, including witches and suspected witches (such as the mother-in-law from another comment), is an offence punishable by death.
It is called "murder". And it applies to people of all cultures and religion.
No judge and policeman is going to accept the reason that a person needs to die because "my holy book says so".
Aren't we all glad that we have secular laws and not religious laws?
"As the title goes So Mixed Race Marriages Are Approximately As Bad As Homosexuality"
As Mr Wang, you did mentioned that the percentage for both the survey is approximately the same and I believe you would also mean that although one of the survey leads to the condemenation and the other does not.
I am sure you agree that both the surveys would not mean that if I vote against one I would also vote against the other.
However I was just wondering would gays out their believe in inter-racial homosexual relationship or they are also strictly one race relationship. Maybe the survey among gays may be even higher against inter racial homosexual relationship.
Once agian this result would also means nothing!
There is a case in the courts right now concerning a person sueing members of a church for detaining her and abusing her purportedly for the purpose of exorcism. It seems she was acting in a strange "possessed" manner (according to the accused). The plaintiff is accused of putting up an act.
(this is not the actual words used in court, I think, just what I remembered from the papers).
The media is being polite, I think, in not asking some very basic questions:
how did a group of church people come to the conclusion, by just observing a person for a very short time, that the strange behaviour of a person is due to possession and not due to mental illness treatable with drugs and counselling?
What is the qualification of the supposedly exorcists? They teach this in Bible school? Is there a grading system -- like, apprentice exorcist, senior exorcist, master exorcist, super-guru exorcist? Is there a 10-year series in Popular bookstores?
Me, as a non-Christian, do not believe in possessions and exorcism. Should I accept exorcism (which usually is pretty dramatic with lots of physical, verbal and mental abuse -- hey, I watch The Exorcist, too!), being performed on people suffering from what is plainly to me just a mental illness requiring medical treatment?
Should I stand idly by and say "hey, religion is free to practice what they want" and not make any comment, even if I think and know it to be wrong?
Now think about all the comments made so far about burning witches and punishing evil people because "my religion teach me so". Substitute "exorcism" with terms like "burning witches" and "hanging gay people" (like Iran) and you will notice many errie similarities.
BTW, it should also be mentioned, in the past (in the present too in some religious cirlces and countries), homosexuality has been classified by many countries as a mental illness. Some anti-gay people today still maintain that gayness is some sort of mental illness. A "gender confusion" illness. By making homosexuality into a illness, it trivilises it into something simple and treatable -- like the flu. Hence born the "ex-gay" industry.
Guess what happened to all those gay men diagnosed as mentally unfit.
(note: the above is not a comment of the facts in the ongoing court case. It is to illustrate a point in the current debate. It is possible that some or all of the information from the court case presented in the above and the media may be false.)
dear mr wang,
I wish for a free and open-minded world too.. this one is clouded with prejudices..
sad.. =(
Lastly, (since I am on a roll here), let's go back to the original topic, and that is the use of numbers and surveys. Mr Wang essentially compare two surveys with similar outcomes to show the weakness of reading too much on surveys.
Numbers and surveys don't always tell us much. So what if 70% don't accept inter-racial marriage? What is a "good" number? What is the "passing" number that shows that society is tolerant? 60%? 50%? 40%?
For me, the number is 0%. So even if you have 10 (1 in 10) or 20% (1 in 5), I consider that the situation is not acceptable.
Now think about the 70% who do not accept homosexuality as reported in the papers. What does that mean? What is a good number to show that society is OK with homosexuality? 40%? 50%? 60%? A 60% acceptance rate means more than 1 in 3 does not accept homosexuality (a big figure) -- and what does this means? Do we have a tolerant society or not?
These numbers, at the final analysis, means very little. They can mislead and yes, they can also lie. You need a bit of common sense and objectivity to put them into perspective.
Philip,
for the love of Christ, if you have any, can you please declare which "church" you are from, and which "brilliant" pastor you got indoctrinated from, so that the rest of us normal, sentient christians dont get lumped together with you?
Mr Wang,
I always enjoy reading about your blog and still do.
As quoted in TalkingCock:- SARONG PARTY GIRL/SPG
A pejorative term describing local girls who will only go out with Caucasians. The stereotypical “SPG”, as she is usually abbreviated, is extremely tan, and skimpily-dressed.
I know of many smart plain janes married to ang mohs, for LOVE. Have not seen any SPG getting that far. We are talking about mixed-race marriage here. :)
To Jimmy Mun
"for the love of Christ, if you have any, can you please declare which "church" you are from, and which "brilliant" pastor you got indoctrinated from, so that the rest of us normal, sentient christians dont get lumped together with you?
Anyone who seriously invokes Ra, Zeus or witches today is deemed a weirdo or a wacko. Why is this so? Did someone around the time of Constantine discover that the pagan gods do not actually exist, while the biblical God does? Of course not.
There are thousands of gods that were once worshipped with absolute conviction and yet we all now agree that they are rightly dead.
So many gods have passed into oblivion, and yet the sky-god of Abraham demands fresh sacrifices.
The God of Abraham should be buried alongside the rest of these imaginary friends.
Wars are still waged and science undone out of deference to an invisible sky fairy who is believed to have created the entire cosmos and yet remains so provincial a creature as to concern itself with what consenting adults do for pleasure in the privacy of their bedrooms.
Eighty-three percent of Americans believes that Jesus literally rose from the dead; 53% believe that the universe is 6,000 years old. How many percent of Singaporean Christians believe same? Add to this comedy of false certainties the likes of people like Philip who believes in burning witches - real ones of course! - and religious loonies who claim god talks to them and become fervent Christians who persecute homosexuals citing their bronze-age magic-book and you get a glimpse of the terrible liability of this sort of thinking.
PZ
Dear all,
I do not depend on wiki for my definition of witchcraft. It was a reply to Mr Wang who replied to me if those mediums who practice necromancy is witchcraft.
Mr Wang, my attitude is kill all genuine witches if I am very sure of that. My posts have leaned towards that. BUT there is very few ways of being sure, unless one turns you to a frog. It is like kill all enemy soldiers in times of war, even if they are in civillian clothing.
But if you are not sure and anyhow open fire, you are still guilty of a war crime, at least legally. The only sure way is when one opens fire. What if I made a mistake? To me, mistakes that result in death is a mistake no one should make. You have to answer to God why you killed an innocent person. So you dun have to worry about me going around burning ppl.
As for my denomination, suffice it to say that there is no fixed one because it is hard to find one that is balanced and neither liberal and conservative.
Whatever I have written are my own personal attitudes and not the attitude of any pastor or church in general.
I do agree that we as new testament Christians do not have the right to punish as the old testament days to Israel. That is why I am more liberal and accepting of homosexuals. In fact, one of the more liberal ones, so to speak, but this attitude does not extend to witches. My personal opinion/prejudice. Not meant to be representative.
Philip
Philip,
You still don't get the point. Who are YOU to KILL anyone simply because you ARE SURE he/she is a witch?!
"My personal opinion/prejudice. Not meant to be representative.
Yes, THANKFULLY.
On hindsight, I rest my case against Philip. There is just no way I can argue against someone who believes that humans can be turned into frogs.
"Mr Wang, my attitude is kill all genuine witches if I am very sure of that."
So in your "balanced and neither liberal and conservative" worldview, if someone killed your mother because he was very sure she was a genuine witch, would that be OK with you?
"Mr Wang, my attitude is kill all genuine witches if I am very sure of that."
Hi Phillip,
I think you need not kill anyone at all. Witches don't even exist you see. So don't get so paranoid and murderous over some imaginary enemy. Live your life in peace. :)
Perhaps you can go after Hermione Granger. I think she is somewhere in Hogwarts, northern UK. But I am sure Harry Potter and Ron Weasely will protect her. ;)
Lastly, if you really want to spend your time well, and please your God, I think its better to do some good to society by taking part in the Walkaton that Mr Wang blogged about earlier. :)
By the way, Happy Deepavali to everybody!
Yuez
Let those who believe in Heaven ascend to Heaven and be nearer with their God earlier.
It doesn't matter whether we choose to go to heaven or hell. But please leave us non-believers alone!
Don't preach and contaminate our young and innocent with your Satanic teachings.
I think there is this phrase somewhere in either the Quran or Bible that says you must only marry "people of the book".
So Professor Thio should ask Parliament to make marriage between "people NOT of the book" illegal and rigourously persecuted. I believe HER majority will agree with her.
Where did she get HER majority figure from anyway? Nobody asked me!
Sorry Mr Wang, I hate to do this on your blog, and I hate to do this AT ALL.
The book talks about a great flood which flooded the entire world like 2000+ years ago? Well, as history would have it, 2000+ years ago was the period of the warring states in China. Millions of people were fighting wars almost daily. There was NO record of flood killing the entire Chinese civilisation. So this GOD from this book, has no business in China. Chinese do not participate nor belong to his world nor control.
FULL STOP.
"First of all, Christians invoke the power of the light."
First of all, let me invoke Buddhism and the Theory of Relativity.
If you see a brighter place, you are in a darker place. BUT you may not be in a dark place. Where there is brightness, there must be darkness, otherwise, it is just plain empty space.
When you say you "invoke" the "power of the light" are you making yourself brighter or darker?
Without a definition of EVIL, you have no sense of what is GOOD. Wihtout a sense of GOOD, you cannot define EVIL. Both must con-exist. Like your homosexuality thingy. It is bad becuase male+female is good. If there is no male+female, then what bad is male+male?
You must understand the perils of obssession, and absolutes, which the anti-gay people are pursuing here.
Faith is good. Being obssessed with faith and refusing to listen to reason, and admitting things outside your faith (like the Jews rejecting Jesus as Messiah) is wrong.
Aboslute good is good? But what is absolute good? Following a set of rules. Anyone who refuses or falls outside the rules is wrong and hence be persecuted. What does that sound to you? Dictatorship? Domain of the Devil isn't it? Either my way or no way. Kill all who do not abide by me. Taliban? No?
What is absolute evil? Where all rules are broken? Everyone can express himself individually? Disobedience is ok as long as you feel like it? Is that not the personal rights issue we have daily? Isn't it known by another name called FREEDOM? Isn't freedom GOOD?
Obssessions and absolutes? Or the balance between? I have made my choice.
"The book talks about a great flood which flooded the entire world like 2000+ years ago"
Err no. You've got your facts wrong. Go double check before ranting.
~[z][x]~ said...
"The book talks about a great flood which flooded the entire world like 2000+ years ago"
Err no. You've got your facts wrong. Go double check before ranting.
November 13, 2007 12:53 PM
Perhaps you can tell us which year did the entire chinese population got drowned in a flood? And the Indians, Polynesians, Egyptians, Aztecs etc etc
No I can't. Because I don't read the book of Genesis literally in the first place.
You're entitled to express scepticism at the beliefs of the fundamentalists/literalists. But at least get THEIR "facts" right. They believe the great flood happened >4000 years ago, not your alleged 2000+.
There (is)was no record that the entire world was ever flooded, neither will it happen in future.
"neither will it happen in future."
Err why? Because of the promise of the rainbow? Don't make the same mistake as the fundamentalists do - making groundless/unsupported assertions.
"Homosexuality is an ethical issue. Those who think it is an acceptable practice, and those who think it is either ethically or spiritually wrong.
Inter-racial marriage is a preference. Nothing ethical or spiritual about it. In fact, it is spiritually wrong to be against one."
Um no.
I can get some people being most attracted to people of a certain race (some which might be their own).
But if the reason that you wouldn't a person who was both gorgeous and a genius and full of warmth and mirth (and after having courted for the longest time EVAR, personality absolutely suited for you, etc.) compared to say, the lacklustre people of your own race (who often might not have such a wide worldview as yours anyhow) -- if the reason for not doing so comes down to race, then I would say you *are* being a bigot.
Besides, people of mixed race in my experience tend to be the most attractive, as well as the ones with the best intelligence (which is not so much due to genes as being brought up across cultural barriers).
If you are uncomfortable about marrying someone of another race, then you ARE being a bigot.
It's plain and simple.
If you are uncomfortable about marrying someone of another race, then you ARE being a bigot.
I would believe trying to impose personal values on others, is bigotory. Like telling your friend not to fall in love with someone outside his race. Telling your friend to fall in love with someone outside his race, when he is reluctant, is also bigotory.
Let everyone choose their own life. As long as they impose their own values, upon themselves, only.
"Neither will it happen in future."
Quite the opposite of flooding will happen; we are witnessing the drying up of the Earth. Seeing is believing.
"Quite the opposite of flooding will happen; we are witnessing the drying up of the Earth. Seeing is believing."
And one of the results of global warming to coastal cities is......
The Result of global warming is less land and more thirst. Btw there simply was'nt any World Flood 2000 or 4000 thousand years ago. If one ever believed in any of the two and says others are wrong, please think again.
You may like to know that the Bible is not the only ancient tale of a great big prehistoric deluge.
Chinese legends, among plenty others, speaks of a great big flood ended by Nu Wa fixing a leak in the heavens.
It's so consistent around the world, I am rather inclined to believe something like that did happen.
Doesnt mean the Bible is the Gospel truth; even the best works of fiction have some correlation to reality. So stop wasting energy disbelieving Noah's flood.
From Wikipedia,
"Is Nüwa related to Noah?
There could be some parallels from the elements of the story to some of the story told in the book of Genesis. These are:
* Nüwa's creation of humans from mud has similarities with the story of Adam's creation from soil (and other earth origin myths, such as the Greek myth of Deucalion-Pyrrha who created humans by flinging pebbles)
* The Fuxi-Nüwa brother & sister element is similar to Adam and Eve coming from the same body
* The Fuxi-Nüwa have a half snake element. In Genesis, Adam and Eve are tempted by a serpent.
* The Fuxi-Nüwa flood survival [citation needed] is similar to the flood of Noah.
Those who read the Bible literally usually consider it plausible that such shared resemblances are derived from ancient legends of a common ancestral tribe whose descendants dispersed widely from Mount Ararat (Genesis 6-11). However, these elements could be coincidences or respond to shared mythic elements present in Creation and Deluge myths around the world. It is also possible that some of these elements have been exchanged between the two traditions and inserted into existing myths."
Please allow me an atheist to make an assertion that there has not a world flood on record.
Can we live a life the way we live without claiming events of the past without evidence.
Caveat; I will not dispute with anyone who believes he/she is more than human. Peace to everyone! I rest my case.
I really like your comparisons which are valid. Thanks for standing up for a group that is not so popular.
Jimmy, it is also entirely possible, and goes to further prove that Jesus Christ went near or to China during the "missing years" learnt a hybrid of Buddhism, Confusionism, Taoism and Hinduisim which he preached as Christianity intepreted to the Jewish context.
I don't think it possibly happened. But I agree with you that the teachings of Jesus can very well be seen/understood as this 'hybrid' you write of.
Oh really.....this article almost had me believe that the Singaporean-Chinese are not the hirsuitism-loving Pinkerton Syndrome-suffering sellouts that they are reknowned to be. Almost.
The Chinese have among the highest rate of interracial (Clarification: Interracial as in Chinese with whites only) marriages, really.
You seem to have little pride in your race. Sounds like jewish brain-washing.
I don't know why progressives get so offended when other people don't approve of marriages between different ethnicities. There are several reasons why this may not be a good idea and I would even go as far as to see that the government may have a right to implement policies to dissuade people from doing it.
Post a Comment