tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post8990124072091597090..comments2024-03-19T18:44:15.041+08:00Comments on Little Stories: Poetry and Politics and PhDsGilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-39806054390299081372009-11-24T20:19:43.018+08:002009-11-24T20:19:43.018+08:00Another review of Two Baby Hands is available here...Another review of Two Baby Hands is <a href="http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-review-of-two-baby-hands.html" rel="nofollow">available here</a>.Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-5936143002998303652009-11-12T12:27:04.878+08:002009-11-12T12:27:04.878+08:00ONE book makes GK an established poet? Does that ...ONE book makes GK an established poet? Does that make Cyril Wong ready for the Nobel Prize? You people are sad...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-89312581905931523602009-11-12T09:03:58.293+08:002009-11-12T09:03:58.293+08:00"LOL, if it is obvious that Gkoh is lashing o..."LOL, if it is obvious that Gkoh is lashing out at one particular Lit major, then why do you need an apology?"<br /><br />I am baffled by the argument here. Yes it is very clear that he is attacking lit students because of his personal vendetta against a particular lit student. Why does that mean Koh doesn't have to apologise? In fact, I think that's the main reason he should apologise. It's the least he can do for his readers as an established poet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-23325194453667110192009-11-10T18:51:55.125+08:002009-11-10T18:51:55.125+08:00I think Singapore writers as a whole deserve an ap...I think Singapore writers as a whole deserve an apology from Anon.Cynical Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-59928328308312266802009-11-10T18:09:25.488+08:002009-11-10T18:09:25.488+08:00LOL, if it is obvious that Gkoh is lashing out at ...LOL, if it is obvious that Gkoh is lashing out at one particular Lit major, then why do you need an apology?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-34222785499496453292009-11-10T12:20:29.300+08:002009-11-10T12:20:29.300+08:00am I the only one who feels that an apology to lit...am I the only one who feels that an apology to lit students is in order? Gkoh was obviously lashing out because of his bad experience with a particular lit major. It's immature and unfair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-85468496206120152062009-11-10T00:34:30.489+08:002009-11-10T00:34:30.489+08:00"Also, I am sure that most Singaporean writer..."Also, I am sure that most Singaporean writers would readily agree that their poetry is far from ready for the international stage."<br /><br />-- urm actually that's not really true lor. Many of our poets have been published and appreciated internationally. Far more than at home actually.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-13464742603474878772009-11-08T09:03:17.547+08:002009-11-08T09:03:17.547+08:00There are certain artistic qualities that make a p...There are certain artistic qualities that make a poem a poem, that distinguish them from prose that is simply broken into lines, whether you like it or not. This is regardless of your motivation for writing poetry. Like Nicholas, I do not like your poems either - they are platitudinous, overrated and do not leave me enriched or enthralled. Your poems leave much to be desired, giving me the impression that you are just randomly chopping up sentences at intervals so that you can label them as 'poems'.<br /><br />I do not know you personally and has no vendetta against you. Please don't think that anyone who doesn't appreciate your poems is your enemy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-5778025754564811222009-11-08T01:01:44.137+08:002009-11-08T01:01:44.137+08:00If he reads more widely (ie beyond Singapore) he w...<i>If he reads more widely (ie beyond Singapore) he would see that he dislikes the vast majority of living poets (anywhere in the English-speaking world). <br /><br />Basically Phil likes his rhymes and strict structures, the way that poetry used to be written 100 years ago. Nothing wrong with that. There won't be any poets today that he enjoys, but there are plenty of old books that he can go back to.</i><br /><br />Oh - I think this really reflects rather great ignorance on your part. Free verse and blank verse can also contain elements of rhythm, rhyme and structure which might not necessarily need to be strict. Please stop falling into the same trap as the reviewer by dismissing the author of the paper without any informed thought.<br /><br />Also, I am sure that most Singaporean writers would readily agree that their poetry is far from ready for the international stage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-20550949740125991112009-11-08T00:56:48.514+08:002009-11-08T00:56:48.514+08:00Mr Wang, your reply to the review and to the comme...Mr Wang, your reply to the review and to the comments here remind me too much of my primary school self reacting against 'flamers' on the internet.<br /><br />Do realise that reviews have never pretended to be more than the reviewer's opinion alone - something meant to provoke independent thought among people who are looking for perspectives on any work of art.<br /><br />I really do not understand why you chose to react this way as it only reveals your unpleasant or immature side. Look - even acclaimed writers such as UK's poet laureate Carol Ann Duffy, accomplished and famous pianists Maksim and Lang Lang, singers such as Jay Chou cannot attest to having a national, let alone global fan base. And I really do not think that they would whine about being misunderstood by their detractors, as they probably realise that the value and judgement of art has always been subjective.<br /><br />You also should come to terms with the fact that academics are a part of society and that they are not only products of <i>our</i> system, but a global one. They will have their own opinions which should be recognised as legitimate within their own academic basis and rigour. Individuals can then choose to follow or deviate from this judgement point.<br /><br />To follow from an above example, classically-trained pianists would detest Maxsim, while he would mock them for not being able to earn as much money as him for half the effort and work.<br /><br />Finally, if you really feel that the reviewer's interpretation of your poem is completely off, perhaps you really have to reflect on your own writing and the manner in which you convey your message to readers. If he could come up with such a supposedly inaccurate response, perhaps there's a fundamental flaw in your writing which you should search for and address, instead of spending your time criticising his powers of interpretation. After all, all artists (not only poets) have a fundamental duty to learn to speak proficiently to one's audience. Unless of course one is a complete narcissist - that would be another case altogether.<br /><br />All the best in your future writing endeavours!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-21246664794376152482009-11-06T16:42:39.254+08:002009-11-06T16:42:39.254+08:00hugewhaleshark is right. it is pretty arrogant to ...hugewhaleshark is right. it is pretty arrogant to write a review in such a way as if it's the final word of judgment. people can see through all the clever words and make up their own minds. a more balanced review would be more intellectually honest and lend credibility to the review.bambangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-91382327083045243252009-11-06T16:34:22.899+08:002009-11-06T16:34:22.899+08:00This entire post is immature, childish and reeks o...This entire post is immature, childish and reeks of egotism. Actually, the whole debate between Nicholas and the author is exactly that - childish insults hurled at each other i.e. <br /><br />'you're wrong!' <br />'no you're wrong!' <br />'you're stupid!' <br />'you're even dumber!'<br /><br />Mr Wang, shut up and accept criticism gracefully. It makes you a better man. Not everyone will like you, nor will everyone hate you. You are simply just another human on this planet. Your arrogance is unjustified.<br /><br />Nicholas, perhaps you should demostrate more tact in your review, being a mean evil lit. reviewer is yet another cliche that the literary world does not need.milkredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10215982427974835350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-20696042110054086062009-11-06T09:59:46.513+08:002009-11-06T09:59:46.513+08:00MW, you shouldn't bother about Nicholas. Even ...MW, you shouldn't bother about Nicholas. Even a poetry ignoramus like me can see that the review loses credibility because of the cheap shots. Sorry but that's how I read things. If you're cheap you're not worth reading even if you have some valid points to make. Maybe I'm too conditioned, writing, and reading most of the time as I do w.r.t. the investment community.<br /><br />The intent of your writing is clear to me, even without you reiterating it:<br /><br /><b><i>"Because my writing is reality-driven (that is to say, it is honest and authentic), I am not apt to embellish or exaggerate the details, for "art's sake".</i></b> <br /><br />And Alfian's points are also clear to me as I read Nicholas' review. Truth be told, I did not finish it. See above about cheap.<br /><br /><b><i>"Nick, as an example, how necessary was it to opine: "To examine any more poems would be unnecessarily cruel to Koh, to the reader, and not least to myself."? It sounds like a glib potshot, rather than as assessment of the poetry itself."</i></b><br /><br /><b><i>"I can only say that one will tend to focus more on the snark than the critique. And then what happens is that it is likely that one will feel less a subject of the review than a target of the reviewer."</i></b>hugewhalesharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05464651179214970834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-86279909204568701392009-11-06T09:44:18.959+08:002009-11-06T09:44:18.959+08:00That review was too clever by half...That review was too clever by half...Thehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02941744057903049051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-84660949756506324362009-11-06T07:34:15.111+08:002009-11-06T07:34:15.111+08:00Alfian:
The Alfian/Robert story is interesting. T...Alfian:<br /><br />The Alfian/Robert story is interesting. Thanks for sharing.<br /><br />Coincidentally, Robert Yeo is reading my book now and promised to give feedback.Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-20718139560814703142009-11-06T07:29:34.601+08:002009-11-06T07:29:34.601+08:00I understand Phil Bay's preferences in poetry....I understand Phil Bay's preferences in poetry. He's very traditional (Tennyson and Yeats etc).<br /><br />So his dislike for my poetry is quite understandable. In the same vein, he also dislikes Ng Yi-Sheng, Felix Cheong etc etc, and SIngapore poetry in general.<br /><br />If he reads more widely (ie beyond Singapore) he would see that he dislikes the vast majority of living poets (anywhere in the English-speaking world). <br /><br />Basically Phil likes his rhymes and strict structures, the way that poetry used to be written 100 years ago. Nothing wrong with that. There won't be any poets today that he enjoys, but there are plenty of old books that he can go back to.Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-53609569256127698152009-11-06T00:01:27.078+08:002009-11-06T00:01:27.078+08:00Phil Bay said...
Many of your poems are shaped-up ...<i><b>Phil Bay said...</b><br />Many of your poems are shaped-up political prose and I find a certain disregrd for rhythm, rhyme and structure.</i><br /><br />Well, I think that's part of what the blog author had in mind when he criticised local Lit students.<br /><br />Personally, I find nothing wrong with a "shaped-up political prose" that disregards rhythm, rhyme and structure. In fact, the notion of such a piece is much more refreshing that the notion of a piece that faithfully follows the literary conventions of the day.<br /><br />But I'm a social sciences student, so what do I know?moseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12702963079436281468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-82551715340360799102009-11-05T23:40:10.798+08:002009-11-05T23:40:10.798+08:00I may not be a lit person, but from the viewpoint ...I may not be a lit person, but from the viewpoint of a bystander, the review was way too biased.<br /><br />As somebody has remarked, the review does look as if it was taking potshots at Koh rather than giving a genuine commentary. In fact, it was spewed and laden with adjectives that were meant to demean rather than critique constructively - Gwee mentioned learning from feedback, but I'm going to have to counter this point by saying that feedback is only worth learning from when it is given appropriately. In this case, Nicholas Liu's review was largely inappropriate, reeking of flavours of potshots and highly biased personal opinions enlarged into negative descriptions. I'm sure if I were to throw lots of negative adjectives at Liu's poems he's definitely going to deem it non-constructive criticism as well.<br /><br />Take a look from Koh's viewpoint - the problem stems from Liu slamming his works too much that even I cannot help but be convinced that Liu has been too absorbed into and constrained by some system that promotes a "formula" for supposedly "good poetry". I do not know the workings of NUS lit, but Liu really needs to stand back and take a look at Koh's poetry from a different perspective separate from the realms of academia. <br /><br />In defense of Koh, even though this is actually my absolute first time reading Mr Wang - as I said, I am not a lit person - Koh is a painter. You see, using words as text is one thing, using words to describe is one more thing, but Koh uses his words to paint a picture, to paint an image, to paint a story. I really loved the "Apples" poem, because I could feel the image (I'm a visual artist by some levels of nature and some levels of nurture) that Koh was painting. <br /><br />The words were simple, and the beautiful image of a child learning his first words, reaching his hands to the sky, transcended the need for bombastic language and further descriptive adjectives. The image may not be seen - and it shouldn't be - it should be felt. I believe Koh has succeeded in painting the feelings that he has felt - and intends for his readers to feel - and this is something worth credit and merit.<br /><br />Unfortunately, this feeling comes with age, comes with life's experiences, and is highly personal to whoever reads it. Like how Ruihe has said, when one graduates from a certain point in life, the experience from revisiting the same poem is different. I believe if she were to write a review on the same poem now, her use of adjectives may be vastly different from what she has said about it 6 years ago.<br /><br />And somewhat a consequence of this is that a person like Liu, whom we may deem as "young" - not in physical age, but perhaps in life experiences - will not be able to see, to feel the images that Koh paints. I believe this is the reason for the negative review, and Koh's reason for the unavoidable labeling of Liu as "young" and "smart-assed".<br /><br />I urge all to exercise discretion though - a review is but a review, an argument is but a person's viewpoint. Someone has said this before in this post, if you like the book, buy it. If you like the poems, read it. These things are inherently personal, and if you were to rely all the time on someone else telling you if you're going to like something or not (i.e. reviews), then you might as well surrender your life as it is, since there is no mind of your own.<br /><br />That's all I have to say, and good day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-59013200782974948342009-11-05T22:13:54.574+08:002009-11-05T22:13:54.574+08:00I found it funny, but more importantly, I found my...I found it funny, but more importantly, I found myself agreeing with the review. Just goes to show how opinions may differ, and that anyone who loves what they do more than the attention it receives, should fight the only battle there is for a writer. The one withstanding the test of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-300650901967374622009-11-05T21:30:02.700+08:002009-11-05T21:30:02.700+08:00"I would rather swallow a ball of uranium tha..."I would rather swallow a ball of uranium than watch this play again" - HAHAHAHA I think that's funny, and that's a redeeming factor.<br /><br />Nic's review wasn't funny though.Agagoogahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11427912904378599921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-24477364396891960712009-11-05T20:38:24.261+08:002009-11-05T20:38:24.261+08:00And so all we once-young poets have grown older an...And so all we once-young poets have grown older and wiser. How time passed for us! I can't find a single word in the advice of Alvin and Alfian to qualify, but, in all that is said, people will still choose to hear or pursue what they feel compelled to do. And why not?<br /><br />We can't ultimately stop this cycle of events: everyone has his/her own learning curve, and every writer or reviewer writes through his or her own time. It is fairly useful to remember that everyone will be either some Robert Yeo's Alfian Sa'at or some Alfian Sa'at's Robert Yeo. We have to hope that, when the case arises for us, we have enough clarity of mind and courage to do what we now quietly feel each side should have done to or for the other.<br /><br />I'm enjoying my virgin posts on Mr Wang's blog! I did love the spontaneous contributions everyone gave and the increasingly literary content of this comments list. Gilbert, I shall look forward to reading your reflections on poetry in January QLRS?<br /><br />Take care!<br />GweeGwee Li Suihttp://gweek.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-61199869128643995362009-11-05T17:45:59.954+08:002009-11-05T17:45:59.954+08:00Gosh, Gilbert, I must say I'm surprised, and v...Gosh, Gilbert, I must say I'm surprised, and very embarrassed, to see that review I wrote way back in 2003 (6 whole years and a metaphorical lifetime ago!) being quoted and analysed in such detail on this blog. I must say that if I were to review that book again today, it would be a very different review as I've become a very different person and reader. One of the perils of publication, I suppose: I feel like I've just been visited by the Ghost of Bad Reviews Past! I'm glad, though, that you found things in the review that resonated with what you try to do in your writing - I suppose the 'Ruihe' of 6 years ago proved herself to be at least a sympathetic reader in that sense. <br /><br />For what it's worth, I think it's safe to say that the writers who have 'appeared' here also understand where you're coming from aesthetically. It's a position that's been taken and defended before, but I'm sure your readers, both fans and non-fans alike, would appreciate hearing your take on what poetry is for you, both as a reader and a writer. <br /><br />Lastly, a word for Nick. He is probably as aware of the subtleties of poetic craft as he needs to be, if not more. Whatever one may think of him as a reviewer, and whatever one's view of his aesthetics, it's quite clear that he 'knows his stuff', to use the plain language of everyday discourse. Let's give him credit for that, at least.<br /><br /><br />Over and out. :)Ruihenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-32516531593735506882009-11-05T17:07:37.655+08:002009-11-05T17:07:37.655+08:00@Gwee - doesn't really matter where ideas come...@Gwee - doesn't really matter where ideas come from; what's important is the life they lead thence. <br /><br />At any rate it's good that there seems to be concurrence that exciting new ground appears to be finally opening up again (I say again because it's been happening sporadically in our literary history, since before Independence, frankly)<br /><br />Despite the strain of SWF09, I have to confess to being quite moved by the range and responses of ordinary readers (Singaporeans and otherwise) -- there is a real hunger and genuine interest that I don't remember from past years. And it's not just reflected in booksales either. More a glint in the eye, a repeat visit, a desire to stay in touch, a promise to do more in class. <br /><br />Writing (like many arts) has unaccountable effects, some of them invisible gains. Gilbert has encountered some of these. They keep us going when things get tough, when friends turn their backs on us, when the money dries up, when critics bark.<br /><br />Gwee is right in the sense that the first (if not primary) beneficiary of our explorations is ourselves, that teasingly obscure star called wisdom. Sometimes we don't live up to our best selves, nor our work, nor our readers (goes for Nick too, as for all of us). But better to trip on occasion than to never have walked, I say. Or to stay silent in the face of what we consider to be wrong.<br /><br />I would like to think that you, Nick, Gwee, everyone here, are engaged in the same enterprise -- of teasing out, fearlessly, what seems true and right to us. For which you have rightly earned the admiration of many, Mr Wang, GK the poet, my Ubin friend. For that sense of honesty, I sincerely applaud you all. This stuff takes time, sweat, risks offence, and doesn't pay. What else would move us to this, but love?<br /><br />Let's look to what is next. Let's build.alfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04076682640342976051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-55435587056181574572009-11-05T17:05:37.287+08:002009-11-05T17:05:37.287+08:00Hey Gilbert,
I've had a little exchange with...Hey Gilbert, <br /><br />I've had a little exchange with Nicholas on Facebook. I don't think I have the right to reproduce his responses to me without his permission, but I'd like to share some of the things I've said. They're going to sound a bit disconnected, since they were written at different times, but I hope it can give you an idea of what I was trying to communicate. <br /><br />1) I think, Nick, considering that you're writing poetry yourself, your attack on Gilbert's does smack of an attempt to subdue the competition.<br /><br />2) I just think Nicholas is reproducing the Cyril Wong school of literary criticism: the snide remark standing in for a point of view, an unpleasantness bordering on the vicious. <br /><br />3) Nick, as an example, how necessary was it to opine: "To examine any more poems would be unnecessarily cruel to Koh, to the reader, and not least to myself."? It sounds like a glib potshot, rather than as assessment of the poetry itself. I gathered that you evaluated the writing as mediocre, sometimes maudlin, banal etc. That's fine with me. <br /><br />But to suggest that an encounter with them will cause such universal suffering to reader and reviewer (in addition to the implication that you're already being magnanimous by pulling your punches--'unnecessarily cruel to Koh'--an admission I find a little intellectually dishonest) is a bit mean-spirited.<br /><br />4) Nick: I have to share with you the fact that my response to your review is a situated one, that is informed by prior experiences. I know that to simply label it as 'mean-spirited' is ad hominem, and I think I ought to make further elaborations on why I think that considerations of 'tone' is problematic. <br /><br />When I was 22, I wrote theatre reviews for Life!. At that time I didn't have a real playwriting career, so I think the paper decided there wouldn't be a conflict of interest. One of the plays I reviewed was a doublebill, consisting of Elangovan's 'Dogs' and Robert Yeo's 'Second Chance'. I enjoyed the former tremendously, but the latter I felt hopelessly dated. It felt more like a skit, and was a stilted relic from 80's theatre that certainly didn't deserve a revival. <br /><br />So anyway, I bumped into Robert at a function hosted by the Goethe Institute a few months after, and I introduced myself. He refused to shake my hand, and remarked, 'you took a cheap shot at my play!'. I was taken aback, of course, and a bit indignant, as I stood by the idea that I was merely, in the review, expressing a point of view.<br /><br />I re-read the review I had written, and then realised that perhaps some comments were unnecessary. There was a line that went something like 'I would rather swallow a ball of uranium than watch this play again', which wasn't even funny, and considering that I was a 'young playwright', implicated me in a kind of iconoclastic, kill-your-fathers posturing. I could (belatedly) sense how Robert might have felt--that I was using my position as a reviewer in a 'newspaper of record' as a kind of bully-pulpit. <br /><br />I'm not saying that all of this should spell out prescriptions for a kind of criticism that avoids injuring personal feelings. Of course there is no point in being diplomatic if one ends up hedging around what one really means to say. To your question of 'what is the harm in a snarky review', I can only say that one will tend to focus more on the snark than the critique. And then what happens is that it is likely that one will feel less a subject of the review than a target of the reviewer. It gets personal, as you can probably infer from GKoh's highly defensive rebuttals (and counter-attacks).<br /><br />****<br /><br />Anyway, I look forward to reading the collection! As you've said, it *is* a point of view, and in Singapore, I don't think any single reviewer has amassed enough clout to become real opinion-leaders. (That said, I do tend to trust Whang Yee-Ling's and Yeow Kai Chai's review film and music reviews respectively. : ))Alfian Sa'atnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-91935715154298467752009-11-05T16:54:38.887+08:002009-11-05T16:54:38.887+08:00dr gwee left NUS becoz his mojo was too big for hi...dr gwee left NUS becoz his mojo was too big for his gonads?? this is how rumours gets started...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com