tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post6627409604562049157..comments2024-03-19T18:44:15.041+08:00Comments on Little Stories: What is The Value of Paper Qualifications?Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-1972722653641820492011-04-25T12:25:31.761+08:002011-04-25T12:25:31.761+08:00http://adisgruntledsingaporean.blogspot.com/http://adisgruntledsingaporean.blogspot.com/joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11740996062400393466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-16348257722491872642011-04-17T22:09:37.917+08:002011-04-17T22:09:37.917+08:00I learnt a new skill over the last 6 months during...I learnt a new skill over the last 6 months during my own free time. As this skill is not learnt on the job, how do I specify this learnt skill on the resume?<br /><br />I mention I have this new acquired skill, would interviewer believe what I mentioned?<br /><br />If I get my new skill certified by a third independent party and I receive a certificate through this certification, then this new paper qualification is useful. Otherwise, how am I going to prove that I have this new acquired skill?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-6399534123330157822011-04-04T18:48:53.399+08:002011-04-04T18:48:53.399+08:00Well, I am a senior executive in the corporate sec...Well, I am a senior executive in the corporate sector. I would say that paper qualifications are just part of the paperwork process.<br /><br />For example, when I hire people, first I look at the CVs that come in; then I shortlist candidates for the interview; then I interview them.<br /><br />Because I tend to be involved in hiring senior people, I really don't care very much about their educational qualifications. Actually I care much, much more about how well they have been doing in the past 5 years of their career, than how well they were doing in school (which could be 10 or 12 or 15 years ago).<br /><br />For those people whom I do choose to hire, I guess somewhere along the way, my HR department does want to check their certificates and so on. But the hiring choice is made by me (and I don't check certificates). Checking certs is the kind of thing you would expect a secretary in the HR dept to do. <br /><br />The certificate-checking process is just some sort of administrative formality. Of course, I expect most candidates to be able to produce their certs.<br />But if I had a candidate who said, "Gee, I lost a few certificates while moving house, I need to apply for replacements" , it really wouldn't be an issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-84458705951737679302011-04-04T18:07:15.032+08:002011-04-04T18:07:15.032+08:00@doctor, you insisted that in your profession noth...@doctor, you insisted that in your profession nothing could be done without the proper paper qualification. I cited to you Arthur Jones as the exception. Your negative opinion of Arthur Jones and that he should be jailed is not a matter to be debated in this forum. You challenged for an exception and I provided one. Period. It is surprising that you could jumped into judgment without doing due diligence about Arthur Jones. It is not easy to be listed in the Forbes Magazine nor is it easy to be accepted by the American College of Sports Medicine.Cheong Wing Leenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-45529491922892707182011-04-04T12:44:31.499+08:002011-04-04T12:44:31.499+08:00In our modern society if one who has not made it t...In our modern society if one who has not made it through high school performs surgery on another HUMAN BEING........I think in any modern country will be thrown in jail. There are no exceptions to this. At least I hope not! Ironically Mr Wing, you state that you agree that the medical profession needs to be regulated but yet advocate and champion those who pushed the barriers by doing stuff that they were not allowed to do under regulations. So which is it for you? For every one Arthur Jones, I can give so a few hundred examples of those who had the same "philosophy" as Arthur Jones but failed and cause permanent harm to their victims.Doctornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-88372643707702690462011-04-04T10:45:39.952+08:002011-04-04T10:45:39.952+08:00I worked 20 years for an inventor called Arthur Jo...I worked 20 years for an inventor called Arthur Jones. He did not make it through high school let alone a medical degree but did surgery and managed to invent medical equipment from his garage with hardly any capital. His medical inventions are used worldwide and in Singapore hospitals and clinics. He was well<br />recognized and respected in the medical circle and conduct extensive lectures throughout USA and Europe. More than 100 papers and articles were published and reviewed by peers and supported by the American College of Sports Medicine. In December 2004, the American Society of Exercise Physiologists recommended that academic recognition for Arthur Jones was long overdue. He was listed by Forbes Magazine as one of the richest man in USA. It was a remarkable feat for a man without much education and money.<br /><br />The following are links to obituary by the New York Times for Arthur Jones upon his death 4 years ago.<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/business/30jones.html?_r=2&ref=obituaries&oref=slogin<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Jones_%28inventor%29<br />http://www.spineworks.com/public/jones/jones.htm<br /><br />I agree with the doctor that in our modern society there is a need to regulate the medical profession. My point is that there are exceptions to the rule, admittedly Arthur Jones would never make it in Singapore.Cheong Wing Leenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-47965660756270574982011-04-04T07:52:40.849+08:002011-04-04T07:52:40.849+08:00Hi fellow lawyer, I suppose the same can't be ...Hi fellow lawyer, I suppose the same can't be said for the medical profession. You can't call yourself a specialist without a FAMS. And GPs with years of experience and expertise in aesthetic medicine cannot be called "aesthetic medicine specialists". Your logic doesn't apply to all sectors.Not to say that good doctors are good because of their paper qualifications but if they are specialists they will have the paper qualifications.Doctornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-52119354577643507152011-04-03T17:13:28.748+08:002011-04-03T17:13:28.748+08:00I like your insight. And thank you for the encoura...I like your insight. And thank you for the encouragement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-63350163398521779212011-04-03T11:04:57.858+08:002011-04-03T11:04:57.858+08:00The most valuable aspects of one's resume will...The most valuable aspects of one's resume will never be paper qualifications, unless you are either an academic, a civil servant or a recent school leaver.<br /><br />Davinder Singh and Lucien Wong are the two most respected lawyers in Singapore's legal profession, yet neither has anything more than a basic law degree. In other words, no masters, no doctorate etc.<br /><br />They don't need it. Instead they are remembered for repeatedly handling the biggest litigation cases and corporate deals in Singapore (that is, their actual work experience).<br /><br /> Davinder for instance handled the NKF case; Lucien handled the acquisition of POSB by DBS. Actual work experience .... No paper qualifications to prove it.Fellow lawyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-66378371671546350082011-04-02T23:10:18.495+08:002011-04-02T23:10:18.495+08:00Paper qualifications are like cosmetics. Expensive...Paper qualifications are like cosmetics. Expensive genuine cosmetics are like authentic paper qualifications. Inexpensive imitations are like fraudulent paper qualifications. Using either one would attract the attention of most men initially. However, those using cheap imitations may not last long enough to establish a friendship because their true facial features would be exposed much earlier than those women using genuine cosmetics. Having said that, women with true beauty and good character will outshine most women with questionable characters despite them using expensive cosmetics.<br />The moral of the story is that even if you have the best university education but you cannot perform, you are not going to climb up or last long in most well managed organizations. No matter what genuine cosmetics you used it could not hide your true character forever.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04887674029494595268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-82486587098584381502011-04-02T16:35:34.588+08:002011-04-02T16:35:34.588+08:00So Gilbert, does the need for paper qualifications...So Gilbert, does the need for paper qualifications make it easier or harder to be a fraud? Food for thought. My view is that having a paper qualification is a first step for someone to then verify if the paper qualification is indeed authentic from its source eg University. Of course there are various ways frauds can work around this. But not having paper qualifications might just mean having no head or tail when it comes to trying to verify the candidate's qualifications.<br /><br />You wouldn't advise your readers to throw away their paper qualifications would you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-41879929305530884542011-04-01T15:50:26.399+08:002011-04-01T15:50:26.399+08:00"Perhaps a better system would be an extensiv...<i> "Perhaps a better system would be an extensive reference check. But even then you can have people pulling a fast one if they prepare their references beforehand and prepare deep enough." </i><br /><br /><br />I did mention how this is done, within my industry.<br /><br />You apply for a job, and go for an interview. In your resume, you say that you worked at Bank XYZ from Year [ ] to Year [ ]; and that you worked at Bank PQR from Year [ ] to Year [ ].<br /><br />Generally, the interviewers aren't interested in YOUR references. What they will do is rely on their own network of contacts; they will identify the persons they know, who would or should or might know you, from your stints at Banks XYZ & PQR; and they will contact those persons directly, without telling you, to ask these people about you.<br /><br />I have been involved in these sorts of processes, from all the different angles. I have been the interviewer, the interviewee and the reference too.mr wang says sonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-68617905561512390842011-04-01T11:44:59.872+08:002011-04-01T11:44:59.872+08:00"Going by that argument, there is no real nee...<i> "Going by that argument, there is no real need for a "good resume" then. For the matter you can see why there are many cases of people with "great resumes" but turn out to be frauds." </i><br /><br /><br />Frauds are an entirely different issue.<br /><br />You might as well talk about people who fake their paper qualifications. Those are frauds too.Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-87041392517240837632011-03-31T12:55:34.740+08:002011-03-31T12:55:34.740+08:00You could be right. Possibly, the months or years ...You could be right. Possibly, the months or years have gone by, and you have still learned zero; achieved nothing at work; and gained no new experience.<br /><br />As I mentioned, the process of seeking to updating your resume regularly should therefore alert you to the fact that you are stagnating; and the risk that you will soon become obsolete or redundant, or at the very least, that you are not going to be paid more. <br /><br />So that's an indicator that you may need to change jobs; or change your thinking; or find ways to value-add.<br /><br />For example, let's consider your bus driver who initially starts off just driving a bus. <br /><br />In the next six months, he might take on the additional duty of arranging the duty roster for other bus drivers. <br /><br />Another six months, and he could be responsible for ensuring that the bus drivers attend their refresher safety training. <br /><br />Yet another six months pass, and perhaps he has become involved in designing a schedule to ensure that the buses are regularly serviced, or perhaps involved in supervising renovation works at the bus interchange.<br /><br />And another six months pass, and he is tasked to help in investigating bus accidents .... or replanning bus routes; or to give feedback on a HR policy for bus drivers' pay ....<br /><br />And eventually, he is promoted to a managerial role in the bus company, or takes on such a role in another bus company.mr wang says sonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-26487225186192993342011-03-30T22:37:40.166+08:002011-03-30T22:37:40.166+08:00"But everyone can aim to acquire some new and..."But everyone can aim to acquire some new and useful work experience every six months. That's why the update is important."<br />Mr Wang<br /><br />I suppose that also depends very much on nature of job and level. <br /><br />And I would think majority of people, substance wise, would have nothing to positively update on.<br /><br />Unless they are creative in saying the same thing in different, more positive, and attention grabbing ways.<br /><br />Much like saying "half full" rather than "half empty".<br /><br />Or "Bus Captain" (but for OMO where are his crew?) instead of "Bus Driver".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-60055213010759782372011-03-30T12:58:46.087+08:002011-03-30T12:58:46.087+08:00Going by that argument, there is no real need for ...Going by that argument, there is no real need for a "good resume" then. For the matter you can see why there are many cases of people with "great resumes" but turn out to be frauds.<br /><br />Point taken. I agree that in life paper qualifications mean nothing until you prove your worth in the market place. But there has to be some system of checks and accountability.<br /><br />Case in point, why don't we just hire doctors who say they are good doctors with lots of experience in third world countries without having them take any exams or assessments? Would you like to be treated by doctors in a system that allowed them to enter the profession?<br /><br />There has to be some form of balance in all this. Talk is cheap. Perhaps a better system would be an extensive reference check. But even then you can have people pulling a fast one if they prepare their references beforehand and prepare deep enough.<br /><br />So in essence what I am saying is that it is not that paper qualifications are everything nor is it worth nothing. And similarly experience and achievements in the real world can be everything but is not easy to verify without extensive research. The two go hand in hand.<br /><br />Mr Wang's post came about because he lost his documents and he started to reflect upon it and justify to himself and in the process console himself on that loss. If he had not lost it, I doubt he would start to think that his file was not important at all.<br /><br />No one in his right mind is going to throw away such a file anyway. So why is that? Of course it is important to have it. But it alone cannot be the end all and be all.<br /><br />I hope that clarifies my position.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-31811386415224143372011-03-30T09:51:58.689+08:002011-03-30T09:51:58.689+08:00Yes, Wing Lee is right.
Paper qualifications are ...Yes, Wing Lee is right.<br /><br />Paper qualifications are most important, when you've just left school (and have no work experience to speak of).<br /><br />After that, the paper qualifications (relative to your work experience), steadily shrink in significance (unless you're working in the silly civil service of Singapore - but you see, the civil service doesn't function in the real world).<br /><br />Further illustration. What are the biggest selling points in my own resume? Stated very simply, they would be:<br /><br />(1) Very good experience across the Asia-ex-Japan region (I've worked on legal matters concerning Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, China, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, Korea etc)<br /><br />(2) Very good experience across four major asset classes in derivatives (rates, FX, credit & commodities).<br /><br />Neither of the above is actually certifiable by a paper qualification. It's 100% work experience. <br /><br />(May I add that when I was in law school, there wasn't a single subject or module about derivatives. <br /><br />Nor did I take a single subject about the laws of Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, China, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, Korea etc ... I am a Singapore-qualified lawyer, which means I studied mostly Singapore law).<br /><br />So, this is how it goes - <br /><br />in my resume, I mention the kind of work I've been doing. Prospective employers who are interested will ask me to come for an interview. There, they will ask further questions about what's stated in my resume, and this is how they verify my experience. They may also talk about legal issues in their own organisation, and how I would handle them. Also, they may ask questions about current legal issues in the industry, across Asia. Based on my answers, they can verify my claims of having particular sorts of knowledge, experience or skills. <br /><br />Nothing to do with paper qualifications.<br /><br />In my earlier post, I mentioned that it's important to update your resume regularly. I suggested that one should do it at least every six months. This should already show you that the emphasis is on work experience. No one acquires a new paper qualification every six months. But everyone can aim to acquire some new and useful work experience every six months. That's why the update is important. <br /><br />---------<br /><br />I really don't know why my post seems to strike some people, as debatable.<br /><br />What you need to do is think about how you yourself purchase goods and services. <br /><br />If you wanted to buy a car, you would first take it for a test drive. (But you wouldn't ask to see the engineer's paper qualifications).<br /><br />If you wanted to book a hotel for a wedding banquet, you would first go for a sample meal at the restaurant to try the food (you wouldn't ask to see the chef's paper qualifications).<br /><br />If you wanted to renovate your house, you would ask the contractor/designer to show photos of other houses that he has worked on, or to produce sketches to show what he can do for your house (but you wouldn't ask to see the contractor's paper qualifications).<br /><br />In other words, you would be interested in the actual work experience and ability. Not the paper qualifications.<br /><br />That's pretty much how it goes too, as far as jobs are concerned. Companies want to employ people with the experience and skills to get the job done. <br /><br />Paper qualifications matter much less, unless the role is for a young person who has just finished school and has little or no work experience to speak of, anyway.mr wangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-6272168212678905912011-03-30T04:11:36.661+08:002011-03-30T04:11:36.661+08:00A resume does not necessarily means a summary of o...A resume does not necessarily means a summary of one's academic achievements. What is more important is the writer's working experience and peers recognition. My resume has zero academic achievement because I have none. My resume was simply a summary of my work and projects backed by photos. For example, I built my own house that was highly rated without an architectural degree, my drawings were recognized although I have never attend or train by any art school. You are too brainwashed by Singapore government's complete emphasis on academic excellence.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04887674029494595268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-69216877746182326132011-03-30T03:39:09.690+08:002011-03-30T03:39:09.690+08:00Dear Mr Wang, it is ironic that in the prior post ...Dear Mr Wang, it is ironic that in the prior post you wrote on how a good resume can influence a job search and yet here you are stating that paper qualifications are somewhat over rated. The basis of a good resume is actually physical evidence to back the facts. And without those physical papers what good is a well written resume anyway? But your argument was well done. Not surprising since you are a good lawyer. It goes to show that sometimes it is not what is really true, but your perspective on it and how others view it or present it that matters more.<br />The next time someone writes something or says something, sit back and think what the writer or speaker's motivations and inspirations might be for doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-3471037763491674092011-03-30T02:01:56.325+08:002011-03-30T02:01:56.325+08:00>>>Talking about PAP candidates, they are...>>>Talking about PAP candidates, they are achievers and high flyers in the public and private sector, some even at a very young age!<br />For instance PM Lee was already a 32 year old Brigadier General when he was first fielded in the 1984 election.<<<<br /><br />Poster at 2011 3:14 PM obviously has not heard of the White Horse system in the SAF where sons of high ranking/rich people are treated differently than the ordinary folk. A BG at 32 years old also casts a lot of questions about the SAF.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-70261284962026645502011-03-30T01:50:11.208+08:002011-03-30T01:50:11.208+08:00As a retiree I firmly believe that having a tertia...As a retiree I firmly believe that having a tertiary education and other professional achievements is definitely an advantage getting into the job market, especially in Singapore. However, beyond that the playing field is more level, maybe not so much in Singapore but certainly in other 1st world countries.<br /><br />There are ample examples of people who have highly recognized academic degrees but by the time they reach their mid life careers or retired, they were no better off than those who have lesser or no tertiary education. The bottom line is having people's skill play a much bigger role than just academic excellence. We should focus more on the quality of life than having tertiary education or not.<br /><br />I was expelled from school but managed to enjoy my working life and retirement. I may be a nobody but certainly a happy and grateful somebody.<br /><br />Many people will say that it is easier said than done to have a decent life without tertiary education. We must look beyond the Singapore government spin and heavy emphasis on academic education. You will be surprised that we are more capable than what the government portray us to be.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04887674029494595268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-11719835386661251092011-03-30T00:47:56.169+08:002011-03-30T00:47:56.169+08:00Paper qualificarions are useless unless you are a ...Paper qualificarions are useless unless you are a fresh grad. It is always your network, your backer or the secrets you know that will get you a nice overpaid position.<br /><br />I mean Headhunters are willing to sleep with you if they know you got a high margin, hign churn portfolio of clients each with a pre sign letter of instructions to switch bank accounts to follow you. <br /><br />End of the day you are nothing more than a pretty prostitute in the banks eyes. Private bankers who failed to realise that and fail to capitalise always end up the biggest loser in the end.<br /><br />People who are hung up on paper qualifications usually end up driving a camry and struggling to finish their 30 year loan for their outback condos with their wives.<br /><br />Value people for the benefits they bring you not how good they are in surviving a system not designed by them.Retired and Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-18530792173286049202011-03-29T19:12:13.933+08:002011-03-29T19:12:13.933+08:00I think that one of Mr Wang's achievements mus...I think that one of Mr Wang's achievements must be his creativity. He draws on his personal events and experiences from everyday life, and turns them into political commentaries! This is a neat way of protecting himself from getting into trouble with the authorities (it is hard to imagine how the PAP could take action against him, over such posts, which read like an entry in a personal diary). Yet the political point is clear, and well-made.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-69242492020861651172011-03-29T18:20:37.138+08:002011-03-29T18:20:37.138+08:00LOL.For someone who played down the importance of ...LOL.For someone who played down the importance of "highfalutin certificates", he sure gave a very detailed account of his achievements. <br /><br />Moral of the story: Losing it doesn't mean that you have lost it. And having it doesn't mean that it will mean much either.<br /><br />Be real.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-17095991617310160602011-03-29T13:21:18.980+08:002011-03-29T13:21:18.980+08:00"Reputation is not based on what you say you ..."Reputation is not based on what you say you will do in the future; it is based on what you have done in the past."<br />Anon March 29, 2011 10:34 AM<br /><br />For PAP, the past is no cause for worry because the future has been assured.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com