tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post6442063635822429784..comments2024-03-19T18:44:15.041+08:00Comments on Little Stories: The Necessity of A Physical Brain For the Existence of ConsciousnessGilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-86220916005873053402009-12-18T01:06:20.816+08:002009-12-18T01:06:20.816+08:00There is a good documentary on this subject by the...There is a good documentary on this subject by the BBC called The Day I Died. I gave it a 5 star rating.<br /><br />Check it out. You won't be disappointed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-24260727438449000692009-10-09T07:29:42.151+08:002009-10-09T07:29:42.151+08:00Well, that raises the possibility that spiritual e...Well, that raises the possibility that spiritual experiences (if they exist) can have physiological markers.<br /><br />Then again, that possibility in itself is nothing new. The story of the resurrection of Jesus, if true, must necessarily have plenty of physiological markers.Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-44136488990039294372009-10-07T00:09:43.915+08:002009-10-07T00:09:43.915+08:002009 - 10 - 06
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/...2009 - 10 - 06<br />http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html<br /><br />cancer or heart attacks. <br /><br />Moments before death, the patients experienced a burst in brain wave activity, with the spikes occurring at the same time before death and at comparable intensity and duration.<br /><br />Writing in the October issue of the Journal of Palliative Medicine, the doctors theorize that the brain surges may be tied to widely reported near-death experiences which typically involve spiritual or religious attributes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-78621888547050830142009-09-16T11:30:24.417+08:002009-09-16T11:30:24.417+08:00There seems to be some confusion over NDE and unco...There seems to be some confusion over NDE and unconsciousness. Probably the reason why there is so much debate over the definition of clinical death.<br /><br />IIRC, NDE implies that there is no sign of life, no pulse, no breathing, no brain waves. In most forms of unconsciousness, there will be some kind of body function operating, usually a beating heart.<br /><br />A person in a coma is unconscious (i.e. he/she cannot be woken up) but that does not mean the person is having an NDE and he/she may still be sensing environmental stimuli even though he/she cannot respond to these stimuli.<br /><br />This is why it is a contentious issue on when to turn off the life support systems of an unconscious person. However, to me, if the person cannot maintain esential body functions (e.g. breathing or heart-beating) plus the complete absence of brain activity without the use of machines, the person can be considered as dead. This view may change when technology has advanced to the stage to be able to put humans into deep-freeze without damaging their bodies permanently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-49786920874093268832009-09-14T00:33:35.574+08:002009-09-14T00:33:35.574+08:00We are but worm food...We are but worm food...Pete of Perthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-59858975944035790532009-09-10T11:40:28.799+08:002009-09-10T11:40:28.799+08:00If we are talking about the existence of conscious...If we are talking about the existence of conscious without a physical brain, then we are wading into deep murky philosophical waters.<br /><br />There is an interesting debate between philosophers on whether the physical world exist. (Yeah, crazy philosophers, but they have an interesting point) Basically, all our knowledge of the physical world is gained through our senses. It is possible that an all powerful evil being is feeding our conscious false sense data so that we erroneously believe that a physical world exist. Sort of like being in the matrix, but worst.<br /><br />The philosophers don't like this uncertainty, and they try to find a way out. René Descartes came up with something brilliant: "I think, therefore I am" as he stated famously, deducing that the existence of a thinking entity is something we can definitely be sure of. From this premise he start making other deductions that unfortunately I feel are not that convincing.<br /><br />Anyway, as far as I know, we are still stucked at this stage. We know that our own conscious thinking mind exist but we can't be absolutely sure of anything else, not even the existence of other conscious thinking minds. So... theoretically it is possible that NDE is real, we can see without our eyes, hear without our ears, perceive the physical world without being part of it or the physical world is just an illusion. <br /><br />Personally, I would prefer to use occom's razer and assume that those patients are just having hallucinations.Cymrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01864810249598538359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-23663093335593421892009-09-09T01:02:15.606+08:002009-09-09T01:02:15.606+08:00Dear Mr Wang,
That was a good read.
You have an...Dear Mr Wang,<br /><br />That was a good read. <br /><br />You have analyzed consciousness from a NDE perspective. However, if one seeks the beginning of consciousness, when does it begin?<br /><br />A minute-old child, a year-old child. Do they have consciousness? I probably became aware of my own existence only when I was 4 or 5? I can't pinpoint the exact moment. Can anybody?<br /><br />Perhaps then the focus ought not be on consciousness but the soul? I reckon ensoulment begins at conception. Or at the very earliest, at birth. It appears to occur before consciousness arises.<br /><br />Similarly, in a NDE, are the soul and consciousness mutually exclusive concepts?<br /><br />And consciousness. They can be switched off? When I sleep. When a person goes into a state of automatism? <br /><br />so why does it matter that consciousness can exist without the brain?<br /><br />i think the fundamental question ought to be, is there a soul? if so, what is it?<br /><br />pardon the lack of structure. these are just thoughts that i occasionally think about, which i believe is more of my sub-conscious (can there really be such a concept?) mind at work.bluBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625600904359822072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-87712108999987236832009-09-08T04:20:23.345+08:002009-09-08T04:20:23.345+08:00Mr Wang,
The brain is just like any other organ w...Mr Wang,<br /><br />The brain is just like any other organ with its specific function.When the brain is dead, is possible that the heart is still pumping .Therefore consciousness reside in the heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-85665917463271824712009-09-07T16:22:14.434+08:002009-09-07T16:22:14.434+08:00I believe the Mao Taoist have described rituals on...I believe the Mao Taoist have described rituals on how to "leave your body".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-52810657142579005542009-09-07T16:20:36.055+08:002009-09-07T16:20:36.055+08:00Wang, "unconditional love" is also descr...Wang, "unconditional love" is also described in Buddhism, and the Chinese "MO" and "RU" schools of thinking.<br /><br />Why do you link only to "GOD"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-17702445596842358872009-09-07T10:42:47.089+08:002009-09-07T10:42:47.089+08:00Is angry doc Buddhist?
While the 3 blind man may ...Is angry doc Buddhist?<br /><br />While the 3 blind man may each have a different perception of reality (elephant) ... kill an elephant and it stays dead ... even for the 3 blind man.<br /><br />So how should we construct our legal system differently?<br /><br />Libet's experiments are hardly perfect ... yet. Besides it does not disprove that whether it is the brain or a higher conscious that makes a decision ... we (the entity) still respond to external stimuli\incentives\KPIs.<br /><br /><br />Ah Wang<br /><br />*sudden vision of angry doc n Mr Wang side-by-side comtemplating the meaning of life ... while maintaining the tree pose yoga stance and chanting the diamond sutra*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-92185699250949542572009-09-06T20:35:45.340+08:002009-09-06T20:35:45.340+08:00I think we need to see consciousness in the contex...I think we need to see consciousness in the context of what we know about evolutionary neurobiolgy.<br /><br />From my reading, I tend to favour the interpretation that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon - that is to say consciousness 'evolved' as a way for the brain to organise sensory information. The brain acts, then fools the consciousness into thinking that the consciousness did.<br /><br />The problem comes because the illusion is too perfect - we begin to think that we have free will and began to construct our moral and legal system around the concept of free will. Libet's experiments should have overturned all that, but the world at large ignores it, or exists in a congnitive dissonance, because the illusion of free will continues to be real (just like how steak continues to taste good even after you realised it's all in the Matrix), and because our moral and legal system seem to have fucntioned so well despite their flawed basis.angry dochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03132410467147982699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-68032310107356318602009-09-06T20:22:35.750+08:002009-09-06T20:22:35.750+08:00I recall reading somewhere that a human head that ...I recall reading somewhere that a human head that is decapitated is still conscious of its surrounding for about a minute or so.<br /><br />Perhaps the brain still has some temporary function(s) that is(are) not measurable or detectable with our current state of technology?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-5388850297581628052009-09-06T16:23:04.793+08:002009-09-06T16:23:04.793+08:00So the summary of the articles goes like this:
Sa...So the summary of the articles goes like this:<br /><br />Say Ah Wang meets Miss X. <br />They have a long courtship ...<br /><br />(Belief)<br /><br />Ah Wang believes in true love and should marry.<br />Ah Wang's friend, Ah Tan thinks there is no such thing and marriage is obsolete\wrong.<br /><br />Apparently, they are both wrong...<br /><br />(Illusion of Free Will)<br />Ah Wang makes Miss X ... Mrs Wang.<br />Ah Wang thinks he made the decision freely but turns out that it is a myth. Actually, he did not do it out of free will.<br /><br />As proof, when the office SYT (with D cup) gives Ah Wang "half ball", little Wang is at attention 10s before Ah Wang even realises that he is staring at a longkang.<br /><br /> (Consciousness)<br /><br />Yet apparently there is such a thing call "consciousness". Ah Wang is conscious that if he does anything funny, he will experience a NDE (I use the term loosely) courtesy of Mrs Wang. So while the brain says "Go for it", Ah Wang is able meditate on the vision of kneeling on durian husks to clarify his thoughts. His consciousness keeps his brain in control. He also remembers Ah Tan had been so close to his death courtesy of the ex Mrs Tan until he seen his own dead body until he returned reluctantly as a undead as he still has to pay alimony. <br /><br />Therefore, the brain is not necessary for consciousness. <br /><br />But Angry doc does not believe so. Cos if there is no need for a brain(or eyes) then why bother evolving them? And ape thinks that like Ah Wang, little Wang have the ability to remember too.<br /><br />My comprehension got pass or not?<br /><br />Ah WangAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-44291959979261260332009-09-06T10:38:50.342+08:002009-09-06T10:38:50.342+08:00It's not related. I've been under GA befor...It's not related. I've been under GA before; I had that kind of experience of being able to hear what people were saying, and not being able to respond. <br /><br />NDEs are not quite like that. If you read NDE accounts, in the person's own words, you will see what I mean. (You can look around the Internet for such accounts).<br /><br />One of the common characteristics is that the person feels unconditional love. He feels completely safe, completely loved, by a divine presence often represented by the white light. He feels so completely loved that it is with great reluctance that he eventually returns to his own body.<br /><br />Such experiences are reported by people from all cultural backgrounds, including atheists and very young children (who have not heard or been taught about "God" in any form).Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-69556287804449748422009-09-06T03:31:43.527+08:002009-09-06T03:31:43.527+08:00Mr. Wang,
That makes more sense. I would feel mor...Mr. Wang,<br /><br />That makes more sense. I would feel more comfortable with the experiment if they only changed the environment after brain-death is encountered. That way, we can reduce the possibility of error.<br /><br />I wonder how much of this is related to cases where coma patients were able to sense everything around them but unable to react. Must have been harrowing to hear your family discuss whether to turn off your life-support and not be able to say "no".Chee Wai Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854913855936196475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-5798209888227371252009-09-06T00:44:31.373+08:002009-09-06T00:44:31.373+08:00My friend's father passed away about 6 months ...My friend's father passed away about 6 months ago. They left the body untouched for 24 hours in accordance to their Buddhist beliefs. I only thought it was weird.<br /><br />But they explained to me, that the Buddhists believed that the "soul" or "essence" of the person will slowly travel out of his body on death. The "soul" will gather itself and exit through the head.<br /><br />AFter 24 hours of chanting, the entire body was cold. But the top of the head, was warm. They did not burn incense, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-69115946559478185652009-09-05T00:48:31.096+08:002009-09-05T00:48:31.096+08:00Hmmm, this finding is known within the Buddhist wo...Hmmm, this finding is known within the Buddhist world, where consciousness is separated from the body during death. Through meditation, it is possible to do it, though it requires a very skilled person to do so. After all, consciousness is an energy which can be transformed from a state to another. There is a lot of Buddhism doctrines on the relation of consciousness and the material body, and how they function together. One can Google all about it.Cappellanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-49198868706573049042009-09-04T23:55:09.412+08:002009-09-04T23:55:09.412+08:00Just to throw in something for thought...
Most pe...Just to throw in something for thought...<br /><br />Most people are comfortable with the notion that memory resides in the brain. (And the brain does the processing as well).<br /><br />What if memory is not stored in the brain? What if the brain is merely a "processor"? If the processor is not working, our sensory organs somehow sends all the signals directly to whatever "storage" place is, bypassing the brain?<br /><br />Ape recalled a documentary where it was mentioned that someone believe memory is actually stored all over our body and the evidence used to support his claim are organ transplant patient who somehow developed certain behavior similar to the donor after the transplant. Pardon ape for not able to recall who is the researcher.... ape's brain still primitive :pApehttp://kinjioleaf.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-86692192498402748382009-09-04T18:36:21.199+08:002009-09-04T18:36:21.199+08:00"Where's angry doc?"
Truth be told ..."Where's angry doc?"<br /><br />Truth be told angry doc was busy working on something that could one day affect the lives of all of us...<br /><br />Besides, others have posted on alternative explanations for the NDE, right from the first post too.<br /><br />There is currently no conclusive evidence that consciousness can exist outside a physical body - some accounts of NDE and reincarnation are admittedly rather convincing, but even then these accounts are given by people with physical bodies - what we are accessing is '*memory*, not *consciousness*.<br /><br />(Consciousness, curiously, is its own proof - we cannot say if someone is conscious of something; only he himself can...)<br /><br />Something like a ghost would be a more convincing evidence, but that's another thing altogether.<br /><br />To me the fact that we have physical bodies is a good reason to believe that consciousness is a product of the physical body - if our consciousness could see the hidden picture on top of a high shelf in the resuscitation room, why bother evolving eyes?<br /><br />If we can think without a brain, why bother developing one?<br /><br />Seems an awful waste to me...<br /><br />From a moral point of view (not that angry doc is a moral person, mind you) a belief in a consciousness that survives death can be a bad thing; it can lead to people accepting that bad things happen to people because of their past karma, or that it's OK to "shoot them all and let God sort it out".angry dochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03132410467147982699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-68956601280864178372009-09-04T17:51:57.688+08:002009-09-04T17:51:57.688+08:00Anon 4:58
Very true.
Until u have a near death ex...Anon 4:58<br /><br />Very true.<br />Until u have a near death experience or an eerie "out of body" experience.<br /><br />*meandering off topic due to inability to meditate \ misplacing medication*<br /><br />Then you might even (against all reason or logic) join the flat earth society (aka religious right) like I did.<br /><br />Then again, it should be obvious that reason or logic is not my forte. <br /><br />PS: Can't wait for next installment ... slow day at the office ...<br /><br />Ah WangAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-27031798654900373902009-09-04T17:46:43.931+08:002009-09-04T17:46:43.931+08:00Yeap. if you can erase memories, it means its on t...Yeap. if you can erase memories, it means its on the brain, ergo, either the brain was recording during the NDE and instructments are not sensitive enough, OR the brain is recreating such memories, without a double/triple blind experiment, some of these experiences can be down to sheer coincidence or 'sporadic eidetic memory'<br /><br /> http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=can-fearful-memories-be-erased-2009-09-03<br /><br />--<br />there is a term for a phenomenon, that is described for past life experiences, where the memories from such actually come from things a person might have seen just casually , yet is noted in the subconscious and later recalled as part of a past life experience..which I can't remember off hand.Chrislouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07510268689998395545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-44322631471428460122009-09-04T17:23:40.757+08:002009-09-04T17:23:40.757+08:00When my dad was in the ICU and unconscious, he was...When my dad was in the ICU and unconscious, he was put in a room that was extremely cold with the air-con blasting away. The nurse claimed that the air-con had malfunction and other rooms were not available. She claimed that my dad is unconscious he will not feel the cold. An argument ensued and we requested for extra blankets for him as he was visibly shivering and for the maintenance crew to repair the air-con immediately. When he was awoken, he told me that he can hear the discussion with the nurse but he cannot response at all. Furthermore he did felt very uncomfortable and cold. Hence it is very doubtful if an unconscious person is really unable to feel discomfort or unaware of their surrounding just because they cannot response to stimulus. As I understand, some Buddhist recommend that the dead be allowed to rest for at least 24 hours before their body are touch because it can be very sensitive and painful if their stiffen body are forced into movement. Also the dead is likely to be conscious even if their heart had stopped for an hour or more. <br />Some insights to a brain function being shut down can be found at this url: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-83363528730315290852009-09-04T16:58:59.062+08:002009-09-04T16:58:59.062+08:00I think this sort of discussion is healthy, as lon...I think this sort of discussion is healthy, as long as people realise that it's highly speculative and full of conjectures. <br /><br />Please don't believe for a moment that this is "evidence".<br /><br />Scott in the first comment got it spot on.Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4405345292513335071.post-37521142956030383812009-09-04T16:57:06.897+08:002009-09-04T16:57:06.897+08:00Where's angry doc?
PS: God could be cloud com...Where's angry doc?<br /><br />PS: God could be cloud computing?<br /><br />Ah WangAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com